The monster

The monster

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:50 pm

Well just got word of the new LL stove coming. Remember now I have a 7000 sq ft leak box and yes I have done a reasonable job in insulation but everything is relative. I am saving a fortune as I see oil is now past $82 barrel and headed north. The wonderful Pocono backed up by the DVC is doing a creditable job but not surprisingly I am running out of steam in this bitchen weather (global warming my a$$). I am noticing when the Pocono is running flat out (Max=38 or so) sometimes the fire runs over the edge and sometimes the bed is a little thick and not so hot. So like everything else in this world when running flat out it is not so good - however, I don't doubt the claims. So as I will have saved at least $7000 this winter, I am thinking of the new stove I will call the Monster (I doubt the marketing dept at LL will approve). Apparently 2x120,000 burners. Opinions?????
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: The monster

PostBy: WNY On: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:01 pm

Phew! that would eat up 100-200#/s day! :)
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
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Re: The monster

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:15 pm

I'm not a professional engineer that is certified to speak with some sort of authority but I'll offer that based on the 90K Pocono I have running at 40, there is only so much heat that you can transfer from the sheet metal back and top with two 265 cfm blowers blowing before the steel (especially the top of the stove)get so hot it starts to lose it's ductility (semi-melt). Putting more stoker units in the Pocono case is an obvious cure to increase heat but I'm of some opinion that running two stokers hard in the size case of a Pocono will result in less metal to air heat transfer that you think, this will raise the stack temp resulting in less efficiency.

The cure to this is some sort of redesign that forces more surface metal to be exposed to the air flowing by, like steel "riblets" or strips of steel welded with frequent weld beads to the inside back and top of the stove. These could be zigged-zagged a bit to reduce any sort of laminar flow effect that could reduce heat transfer between the metal and air. This sounds like a patent ! Matthaus, quick!!

Understand too that if you pull air from a hole or duct in the Pocono top, that that air will not see the extra 8-10" of top metal exposure had the air come out the front.

Some thoughts on thermodynamics which was my major in college, then the post graduation beer made me forget all what I learned. ;>
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

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Re: The monster

PostBy: wlape3 On: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:28 pm

Depends on how oversized the existing stove is for heat transfer. In the old days everything was oversized to account for fouling or changes in through put.

Wonder what kind of transfer you could get from a dimpled surface? A little turbulence goes a long way in promoting forced convection heat transfer.
wlape3
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: 140 auger, forced hot air

Re: The monster

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:49 pm

WNY, YOU got it, dimples are one good idea, some sort of roughness that disturbes the air flow a bit increases the metal to air heat transfer, what you are doing is reducing the film coefficient . You probably could not dimple the back wall of the Pocono if it were a top vent as the tubes use the smooth back wall for proper sealing but other areas could be dimpled. All this sort of stuff is increasing important as you do dual burners.

Keep those ideas flowing

b
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: The monster

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:16 am

Uglysquirrel wrote:WNY, YOU got it, dimples are one good idea, some sort of roughness that disturbes the air flow a bit increases the metal to air heat transfer, what you are doing is reducing the film coefficient . You probably could not dimple the back wall of the Pocono if it were a top vent as the tubes use the smooth back wall for proper sealing but other areas could be dimpled. All this sort of stuff is increasing important as you do dual burners.

Keep those ideas flowing

b




Vortex generators ?
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: The monster

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:55 am

Wow Ugly, and thx for the input guys, how can I possbly argue with a man that had his post graduate degree training in beer. So two Poconos may give me a more efficient operation - of course that means more money and money is tight right now. Yes Hyfire, perhaps up to 200# a day but I doubt that I would ever run it flat out and that is the point. Even if I burn 12 tons a winter that is perhaps $2400 in fuel costs. Do I wish I had never bought such a big house - you bet - but we are where we are. It's all a ratio, if I wish to keep warm then that is the cost and anthracite saves me a bundle over the alternatives. Now efficiency is a more concerning issue, I do need to get every ounce of heat I can from this thing and it so needs to be a big box - yes? and a big hopper? I am chewing through a lot of that 200# in the hopper now on a bitchen cold night. I have worked out the cold air returns so I can distribute the heat. I remain glued to this channel as they say. Now I know some of the questions to ask LL - any more thoughts? One thought I had is that if they design the thing properly and I never run the thing even close to flat out (my plan) it should be very efficient. Well LL, as I trust you, we are all watching. As Reagan said - trust but verify. As oil continues to soar (my guess) you open up new markets with this Monster, good luck. I am planning the official dumping of my oil system and am going to be a totally coal house. I dont' care what the regs say, I'm sick of being broke and cold. Right back to my childhood and my parents phurnacite stove - very cool. " Don't sit on that stove Simon or you will get hemorhoids when you grow up". I never did - but that is another story. Funny how the world changes.

The Monster, in italics and red with black liners and even a devils face, is my candidate for a name. However, even if you name it The Wimp, but come up with good product, I will buy. I once fell for the name Thunderbird and that was the biggest POS ever and I walked home many times, so the name is not so important to me anymore :partyhat: .
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: The monster

PostBy: WNY On: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:35 am

My Hyfire I was running almost flat out on Sat. Night, it got down to -6 and it was cranking at 96% feed Rate and the stove temp was reading 550-575 on the front!! It probably chewed up 80-100#'s in 12-14 hours, but it maintained 68 (Setpoint) in the living when I got up at 6am.
Getting the heat upstairs was my priority with my own heat jacket and extra blower that works quite well. I still have the 2 stock blowers running off the coaltrol
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
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Re: The monster

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:40 am

...and whilst Cuba is tough to beat in the low temp department sometimes we nearly get down there for weeks. Sounds as though you have yours dialed in about right. I try hard to convince myself it's not too bad really but often it really is. Could be worse as I could live in Florida. I have a slightly different idea on distribution. I just cut two register holes in the floor and let the heat well up. Nothing like a nice hot floor to convince yourself that you are warm. Convection with a little cold air return fan seems to work fine.
Last edited by coalnewbie on Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: The monster

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:16 am

One more question, every month of so I do a clean up but in between the unit gets real dusty. How will thick layer of dust on the metal change the heat transfer? Perhaps it's two more questions. I was given a hot tub ($5000 new) that the guy used to have outside the back door and jump in in the winter. He just woke up to the energy needs but could not even give it away - again how times have changed. So now it sits outside my back door - empty of course. I can move it to the coal stove room now LL is coming out with a pool heater too - hmmmm -- any more thoughts guys. They are coming out with a boiler too but I reject the idea of hydronics based on power needs of heat distribution and maintenance. I looked that the AA260 once. Thermosiphons will not work for me. :partyhat:
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: The monster

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:26 am

No wish to hijack the thread but Ugly I nearly dropped my coffee as I realized what you said..

"Understand too that if you pull air from a hole or duct in the Pocono top, that that air will not see the extra 8-10" of top metal exposure had the air come out the front."

OF COURSE. Yeh, yeh should have used the quote button - so obvious - so simple - so important - and of course, being dense, I missed it.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: The monster

PostBy: wlape3 On: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:32 am

coalnewbie wrote:One more question, every month of so I do a clean up but in between the unit gets real dusty. How will thick layer of dust on the metal change the heat transfer?


Depends on the thickness and "fluffyness" of the ash. The ash is a much better insulator than a conductor so any ash buildup will cut down on the efficiency of the heat transfer. The thicker the ash layer the more you will lose. If the ash is very "fluffy" then you get the insulation effect of dead air as well.

Try banging the sides of the stove with something that won't damage it to knock the ash off.
wlape3
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: 140 auger, forced hot air

Re: The monster

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:05 pm

ahhhhh! The drone of the 265 cfm fans have me mezmorized, I can't think about anything technical any more..................

:>
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: The monster

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:49 pm

I found if you bypass the coaltrol and just plug them in they are quieter and of course running at 100% if you can stand that- or perhaps I am imagining things.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: The monster

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:17 pm

We had the Monster fired up today . All I can say is WOW!! Stay tuned . :D
Flyer5
 
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