Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:01 pm

“I don’t want to punish anybody but there are an extraordinary number of people whom I want to kill. I think it would be a good thing to make everybody come before a properly appointed board, just as he might come before the income tax commissioner. And say every five years or seven years – just put them there and say – Sir, or Madam, will you be kind enough to justify your existence. If you’re not producing as much as you consume or perhaps a little more then clearly we can not use the big organization of our society for the purpose of keeping you alive because your life does not benefit us and it can’t be of very much use to yourself.”

George Bernard Shaw
Fabian Socialist
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:07 pm

“And all we’re suggesting — and we’re not going to solve every difficult problem in terms of end-of-life care. A lot of that is going to have to be, we as a culture and as a society starting to make better decisions within our own families and for ourselves. But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that’s not making anybody’s mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know and your mom know that, you know what? Maybe this isn’t going to help. Maybe she is better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller. And those kinds of decisions between doctors and patients, and making sure that our incentives are not preventing those good decisions, and that — that doctors and hospitals all are aligned for patient care, that’s something we can achieve.”

-Barack Hussein Obama
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:13 pm

Black_And_Blue wrote:“I don’t want to punish anybody but there are an extraordinary number of people whom I want to kill. I think it would be a good thing to make everybody come before a properly appointed board, just as he might come before the income tax commissioner. And say every five years or seven years – just put them there and say – Sir, or Madam, will you be kind enough to justify your existence. If you’re not producing as much as you consume or perhaps a little more then clearly we can not use the big organization of our society for the purpose of keeping you alive because your life does not benefit us and it can’t be of very much use to yourself.”

George Bernard Shaw
Fabian Socialist

Over the arc of time, fascists have done that far more than socialists.

Ever heard of "Arbeit macht Frei?"

These philosophies aren't switches. They're governmental poles which exist only on paper. It's more accurate to say (1) that no "pure" system of any sort has survived long, and (2) that the seemingly opposite poles of socialism and fascism actually meet -- where reason is lost.
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:18 pm

Black_And_Blue wrote:“And all we’re suggesting — and we’re not going to solve every difficult problem in terms of end-of-life care. A lot of that is going to have to be, we as a culture and as a society starting to make better decisions within our own families and for ourselves. But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that’s not making anybody’s mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know and your mom know that, you know what? Maybe this isn’t going to help. Maybe she is better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller. And those kinds of decisions between doctors and patients, and making sure that our incentives are not preventing those good decisions, and that — that doctors and hospitals all are aligned for patient care, that’s something we can achieve.”

-Barack Hussein Obama

Ah, a "Death Panel" devotee. :roll:

1. The ballooning cost of end-of-life care for the terminally ill IS a big problem in this country. We do have to learn how to accept the ends of our lives with more grace. And there's no doubt that it's a tall order in an age where advances are so fast that people easily can be led to believe, almost always at a terribly vulnerable time, that there's a cure for every malady, if only we spend enough money on it.

2. You guys like to talk about "rationing" and "denial of treatment" as if it doesn't occur. It does. Today. The insurers are doing it all the time.
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: smokeyCityTeacher On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:24 pm

And when this gimp knee of mine finally gives out at 65 from too many basketball games - I don't want to be told that a man my age does not really need to be able to jog or play softball with my grand-kids - and a knee replacement is not really necessary - why not just take the pain pills and give up those activities so that younger people who really need a good knee can have it?

I want UAW healthcare NOW!

Black_And_Blue wrote:“And all we’re suggesting — and we’re not going to solve every difficult problem in terms of end-of-life care. A lot of that is going to have to be, we as a culture and as a society starting to make better decisions within our own families and for ourselves. But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that’s not making anybody’s mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know and your mom know that, you know what? Maybe this isn’t going to help. Maybe she is better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller. And those kinds of decisions between doctors and patients, and making sure that our incentives are not preventing those good decisions, and that — that doctors and hospitals all are aligned for patient care, that’s something we can achieve.”

-Barack Hussein Obama
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:50 pm

Hey, Teach, for the sake of this discussion, make it 85.

And nobody's going to deny you the replacement under any plan under discussion. It's just that, after a certain age, I won't have to pay for it, you will.

And, if you think that's something new, ask some 85-yr-old who's not in the UAW whether his is covered now. "Not in your Plan."
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: smokeyCityTeacher On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:19 pm

stockingfull wrote:Hey, Teach, for the sake of this discussion, make it 85.
And nobody's going to deny you the replacement under any plan under discussion. It's just that, after a certain age, I won't have to pay for it, you will.
And, if you think that's something new, ask some 85-yr-old who's not in the UAW whether his is covered now. "Not in your Plan."


You are confident there will never be rationing of health care under Obama care but if a non UAW were to ask for it right now .. he would be denied.

IOW we have ratinoning right now where there are mlliions and millions not covered and not showing up for service - but when those untold millions finally do have health care and show up at the hospital - we will have less rationing and even more care to offer.

Same number of hospitals and doctors but with millions more now asking for health care == more health care per person
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:21 pm

stockingfull wrote:Ah, a "Death Panel" devotee. :roll:

1. The ballooning cost of end-of-life care for the terminally ill IS a big problem in this country. We do have to learn how to accept the ends of our lives with more grace. And there's no doubt that it's a tall order in an age where advances are so fast that people easily can be led to believe, almost always at a terribly vulnerable time, that there's a cure for every malady, if only we spend enough money on it.

2. You guys like to talk about "rationing" and "denial of treatment" as if it doesn't occur. It does. Today. The insurers are doing it all the time.


So does the D's plan include legalizing "assisted suicide"?

Do YOU support it?
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:26 pm

stockingfull wrote:Over the arc of time, fascists have done that far more than socialists.

Ever heard of "Arbeit macht Frei?"

These philosophies aren't switches. They're governmental poles which exist only on paper. It's more accurate to say (1) that no "pure" system of any sort has survived long, and (2) that the seemingly opposite poles of socialism and fascism actually meet -- where reason is lost.


The Nazi's were the National Socialist Party.

I posted up a history link to "The Soviet Story" in Flame Central which goes into detail about how the Soviets and Hitler colluded and explains that the only differences between their ideology was their sphere of influence.

This H.C. bill is Unconstitutional, it grants additional powers to the Government that are not outlined. Whatever benevolent spin you wish to put upon it will never sway the facts that throughout history, governments become tyrannical and they are the most efficient killers on the planet.
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:30 pm

The quality of life is just like health care, if you have good affordable insurance you could care less about it. When your faced with your own end its hard to say what you would want at that time. When my previous wife was terminal she had a DNR order right above her head on the wall where you couldn`t miss it. The doc saved her anyway only to suffer more, it was his hippocratic oath he told me. It was the fact that that we had good health coverage at the time, had nothing to do with saving a life it was all about the money.
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:31 pm

jpete wrote:So does the D's plan include legalizing "assisted suicide"?

Do YOU support it?

"Legal" or not, people do it all the time. And docs "assist" them all the time.

I had a relative in AZ who got old, had a little stroke and got scared that she'd lose her mobility and all quality of life. So far as I know, no "terminal illness" in the classic sense. But no kids, so she went to her docs, stopped eating, got some "home hospice" people to come in and give her water and narcotics, and checked out.

No dramatic "Kevorkian cocktail," mind you, but definitely a "designed death." I gather it's nothing unusual anymore. Maybe never was.

Where've you been, man?
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:37 pm

I don`t know what rock you have been living under teach but what you have now is mostly the uninsured in the ERs wasteing tax payer dollars getting a hang nail removed. The Ins.Co.s don`t foot the bill the hospitals don`t get fully paid & Mr. & Mrs. Taxpayer end up paying their bill. They don`t even go there on their own, they call an ambulance to take them so tack on about $600 more to our bill.
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: smokeyCityTeacher On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:49 pm

samhill wrote:I don`t know what rock you have been living under teach but what you have now is mostly the uninsured in the ERs wasteing tax payer dollars getting a hang nail removed. The Ins.Co.s don`t foot the bill the hospitals don`t get fully paid & Mr. & Mrs. Taxpayer end up paying their bill. They don`t even go there on their own, they call an ambulance to take them so tack on about $600 more to our bill.


rock? i live in the heart of the ghetto pal. I see ghetto trash clogging the ER nagging doctors for pain pills.
My little sister is a Phyician's Assit. in the E.R and she is disgusted by having to spendi 50% of her time repeating to people that "NO WE CANNOT GIVE YOU ANY PERCOCET OR OXYCONTIN for your headache"

and my point is exactly what you seem to think you need to tell me again.

Here it is again : "What are we going to do when millions of new insurees flood our hospitals"
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:50 pm

stockingfull wrote:
jpete wrote:So does the D's plan include legalizing "assisted suicide"?

Do YOU support it?

"Legal" or not, people do it all the time. And docs "assist" them all the time.

I had a relative in AZ who got old, had a little stroke and got scared that she'd lose her mobility and all quality of life. So far as I know, no "terminal illness" in the classic sense. But no kids, so she went to her docs, stopped eating, got some "home hospice" people to come in and give her water and narcotics, and checked out.

No dramatic "Kevorkian cocktail," mind you, but definitely a "designed death." I gather it's nothing unusual anymore. Maybe never was.

Where've you been, man?


So she was illegally given an over dose of narcotics by a medical professional?

Maybe you don't want to say that on a public forum.

I didn't ask you if it were "done all the time", I asked if it was going to be made legal.

People get shot with hand guns all the time, last I checked, it's still generally illegal.

Unless the shooter is a cop and the shootee is black. Then you get a medal.
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Re: Here is what the Democrats need to do to pass thier bill

PostBy: rberq On: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:56 pm

samhill wrote:When my previous wife was terminal she had a DNR order right above her head on the wall where you couldn`t miss it. The doc saved her anyway only to suffer more

There have been wrongful-life lawsuits in cases like that, but I don't think any have succeeded, unfortunately. Docs can't be trusted. Or, I should say, we have no way of knowing which ones can be trusted. In my job, I come in contact with nurses. An OR nurse told me there are surgeons in her hospital that she wouldn't allow to touch her cat, let alone a family member. And yet, if you don't have insider info, you have no way to know who those surgeons are.
Last edited by rberq on Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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