The Immorality of the Left

Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:07 pm

No I don't think our current problems have come about recently but I think it is the continuation of failed policy only more so that will make them worse.

Your belief that conservatives have been in charge for several decades is not true. Reagan was the only one and it was the Contract With America that gave Bill Clinton something to brag about in his second term. The second Bush talked conservative but that was about it.

I agree with you that character is lacking in most of our politicians. I voted for Ralph Nader twice for that very reason, more as a protest since he had no chance.

As you said the days of the robber barons on closer look were replete with abuses and colossal greed. Stopping it is what Teddy Roosevelt was about. But how about Ford and Firestone and Waltham Watch and Westinghouse and Edison and Tesla and Colt and Singer and thousands of others who brought prosperity? Free wheeling brought abuses but in your scale of justice you have to add these others on the other side of your balance.

Why is the desire to acquire wealth greed? Isn't it normal to want to get ahead? Shouldn't it be desirable to reward accomplishment? Is incentive bad? Maybe there is a turning point where too much becomes greed. How much does Bill Gates make on a copy of Windows? fifty cents? I really don't know. His wealth comes about by the increase in value of his stock. How about the foundations set up by the super wealthy? I bet the money is spent a lot more wisely and beneficially than if government had confiscated it. Do you like the Smithsonian our nations attic storeroom? It was set up with a bequest from an Englishman, Smithson by name to the US Government to create an institution of learning. They very nearly pissed it away before finally building it.

Do you thing it greed on the part of Smitty that he is revolted by his state government? He just wants to be Smitty. That is the true crime of liberalism. Overweening paternalism that stifles the spirit. It is immoral. I am sure you consider yourself a moral person and I would probably agree. But what you support is not. At least maybe you can see the other side and our concerns.
franco b
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:40 pm

I`m revolted by my state Gov. also which is Dem. but I don`t paint all liberals at fault nor do I blame Wash. for my state problems. I don`t believe that either is totally right nor totally wrong. Personally your example of Reagan being a savior is totally opposite of my view, then IMO is where a large part of our present problems started.
Its your right to vote for Nader but why vote for a Pres. at all if your just throwing your vote away?
I never stated that wealth was greed they are not one in the same. Its what you do with it or how you obtained it that becomes greed.
I think the Wall St. bonuses that have been allowed for decades is greed, it should have been nixed by the stockholders, perhaps they were also the victims of a ponzi scam. Next time you get a super lousy waitress remember to leave a larger tip than normal for doing a bad job.
I would guess that you would also consider Carnegie a great guy also.
Lastly you have no idea of what I support.
samhill
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:52 pm

I have a lot of respect for Ralph Nader. I never voted for him for prez, but I considered it. I did vote for Jon Anderson in 1980. I thought his 50c per gallon gas tax was a good idea--conservation of fuel plus revenues to pay down the debt :roll: . What did I know? I was 20 years old!

I was not a Reagan fan the first time around. But, while in college, after listening to the liberal talking points for four years trash Reagan and the conservatives over and over again while those same conservatives lifted the country from the triple maelstrom of high interest rates, high unemployment and high taxes, I realized that the liberals simply had it all wrong. While they may have had legitimate concerns in the sixties and early seventies, their plan for the future didn't include what the Founders wanted, namely, freedom of opportunity.

No, they wanted guaranteed outcomes....and they still do. They are still smoking whatever it is in their pipes (and it isn't tobacco!).

The moral compass of the left tells them to take from the wealthy and give to the poor. Amazingly, Samhill cannot see that is what they seek. Apparently his hatred for the "greedy" and his Robin Hood mentality doesn't translate into his concept of "theft". He doesn't question where all the money comes from to pay for luxury medical services for the poor. He also doesn't question where the medical technology came from that he wants to distribute to everyone, according to their need. Psst, Samhill, that technology came to us as a result of "greedy" corporations. Just so you know, greed is a better motivator than the raw goodness of mankind. It is that motivator we don't wish to kill.

As for us God-loving conservative men, we do recognize that you left wingers think that compassion is your home turf. The problem with your brand of compassion is that it is never personal. It is always institutionally and ideologically driven. Pity. In God's eye, all compassion is personal.

God made men to suffer and die. Man will never save man. Only God can save man. Yet men are like God and should try to save men. Those who try should make such acts personal gifts. Yet, what man cherishes a gift stolen from another man?
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:58 pm

Since you have been defending liberalism the inference is you support it. That what this thread is about.

A vote for Nader showed non support for the mainstream candidates.

I also don't find all liberals at fault either. It's their philosophy I find at fault.

Honesty and integrity are not a monopoly of either side. I liked both Eugene McCarthy and Adlai Stevenson, but only for their character and not their politics.

If you could recall the days of Johnson,Nixon, Ford, and Carter then I think you might at least think Reagan was better than what went before. JFK was not really Camelot either but he had more sense than the others and if he had lived I think he would have been better than what we got in his place.

I agree with you that rubber stamp boards of directors that are too often political payoffs and do not protect stockholders are a disgrace.

I already commented on robber barons.

You seem to be focusing on the evils of capitalism and I agree that they do exist. Another evil not mentioned is the lust for power. The robber barons had that in spades and so does our present government. If they succeed they will outdo a million Berny Madoffs in damage to our country.
franco b
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:29 am

Well when you talk about a lust for power I can think of none greater than Cheney, that aside Reaganomics IMO was to most disastrous thing that ever happened, it was an era of greed like never seen before. It was the con.s that raised the debt linit to200 B in 1984 & I have to say that a lot of Rep.s did not want to vote for it but did. Carters Gov. spending in was 74B by 1986 it was 990B. Reagan took credit for deregulation of gas & oil, the trucking & airlines Ind.s started in the Carter Admin. He did cut tax rates across the board, highest for rich but then took away tax savings with bracket creep & higher SS tax, & he removed most of the deductables that the middle class had. Then guess what he he put in fees on coal & natural gas production, airlines, shipping & highway users fees( a fee is not a tax I guess). He made waitresses pay SS tax on tips & increased tax on business & cap. gains. He did attack Wall St. way back then even putting some in jail, remember Ivan Boesky. He increased farmers price controls, supports & subsidies. Appointed Greenspan, heck even took the solar panels off the White House roof, fired the air traffic controllers. Then his little pet projects like the Contra War,Guatemala & el Salvador (wonder why S.A. has a dislike for us) even supported Apartheid, the Fundamentalist Regime in Iran & trained & armed Al Qaeda to fight the Russians. That is a true conservative hero.
samhill
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:26 pm

samhill wrote:That is a true conservative hero.


Glad to see you are finally getting it. You forgot ending the cold war, double digit inflation,unemployment, and the twenty years of prosperity following his presidency, but those are just minor accomplishments.
franco b
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:45 pm

samhill wrote:Well when you talk about a lust for power I can think of none greater than Cheney, that aside Reaganomics IMO was to most disastrous thing that ever happened, it was an era of greed like never seen before. It was the con.s that raised the debt linit to200 B in 1984 & I have to say that a lot of Rep.s did not want to vote for it but did. Carters Gov. spending in was 74B by 1986 it was 990B. Reagan took credit for deregulation of gas & oil, the trucking & airlines Ind.s started in the Carter Admin. He did cut tax rates across the board, highest for rich but then took away tax savings with bracket creep & higher SS tax, & he removed most of the deductables that the middle class had. Then guess what he he put in fees on coal & natural gas production, airlines, shipping & highway users fees( a fee is not a tax I guess). He made waitresses pay SS tax on tips & increased tax on business & cap. gains. He did attack Wall St. way back then even putting some in jail, remember Ivan Boesky. He increased farmers price controls, supports & subsidies. Appointed Greenspan, heck even took the solar panels off the White House roof, fired the air traffic controllers. Then his little pet projects like the Contra War,Guatemala & el Salvador (wonder why S.A. has a dislike for us) even supported Apartheid, the Fundamentalist Regime in Iran & trained & armed Al Qaeda to fight the Russians. That is a true conservative hero.


And exactly what power did Cheney lust for? And what did he get? He did nothing but protect our nation.

Reaganomics brought you 20 years of prosperity. Clinton was able to bask in Ronnie's reflection. What more could you want?

You say that era was an era of greed like none before--what did you call the dot.bomb era? or the real estate bubble era?

There has never been a Democrat congress that didn't vastly outspend the preceeding Republican congress.

2% of the rich pay over fifty percent of the taxes. Over 50% of filers pay no income tax at all. Some of them receive a refund without ever having money deducted from their pay (the EIC program). When taxes are a drag on the economy, the only taxes that can be cut are those of the rich.

Waitresses should pay social security tax on their income. Everyone else pays SSI on their earned income.

Regulating monopoly and pure competitive industry is one role of the government.

Charlie Wilson, a democrat, worked tirelessly to train al Qaeda to fight the Ruskies.

SA doesn't like the US because they are mainly socialists and we are Capitalists. Why do you pander to socialists?
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: Dann757 On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:06 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:Why do you pander to socialists?


Hahaa you answered your own question eloquently...

mikeandgerry wrote:As for us God-loving conservative men, we do recognize that you left wingers think that compassion is your home turf. The problem with your brand of compassion is that it is never personal. It is always institutionally and ideologically driven.


I'm so burned out on arguement for entertainment. The pairs of opposites, everybody has to take a side, it must be human nature. This is like a cyber-pub with lots of locals. I hope some good comes of it. Everybody wants to be loved and appreciated, to feel important.

I want to try to understand liberal mentality, my predominant thoughts are conservative; but maybe that's because I had to fend for myself too early in life. I think this country was set up so everybody has a shot at it. It being prosperity, freedom, liberty. I'm trying not to totally discount liberal thinking as the egotistical "taking the moral high ground." I do find it difficult to have compassion for the welfare state.

Two sides of the same coin, arguing, and not realizing the coin has been tossed off a cliff....
Dann757
 

Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:43 pm

Mike you are right Cheney did nothing to help our union.
We are paying for Reaganomics now.
Don`t know what your talking about the dot bomb ? The real estate bubble era was in effect due to a large part of Reaganomics & the Gov. choosing to look the other way rather than regulate.
There has never been a Rep. Congress that didn`t outspend a Dem. Congress, they just didn`t pay for it.
If you make a billion & pay 1% it means nothing, if you make $10,00 & pay 1% your denying essentials for your family.
Waitresses had to start paying on tips which were figured on a % of the amt. that their customers bills that they may or may not have got, they always paid on their salary which did not have to be min. wage. Again even today you only pay SS on the first $109,000 you earn if you earn 10 billion more you pay nothing on it.
So who was Pres. when Wilson trained al Qaeda?
S. America hates us because we meddled in their business & helped in the killing of innocents.
You forgot about the unions & the working man I guess he was their friend also.
He put the armed forces in to the employed #s for the first time.
He does get credit for the cold war which was winding down as Russia was running out of money.
But enough about the Reaganomics just what is it that makes a liberal immoral, & who are you to determine that?
samhill
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: Dann757 On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:16 pm

samhill wrote:just what is it that makes a liberal immoral, & who are you to determine that?


Sorry to chime in, Samhill, I think you're an Ok guy and you're willing to talk. My young buddy is very liberal, but since we're good friends, we really do attempt to have meaningfull discussions about it. Sometimes I'm ready to hang up on him, sometimes we end a conversation and we're both furious. Then a couple days go by. He called me back the other week and started saying "fffffffuuuuccckkkk youuuuu!!!!". I started yelling "I HATE YOUUU!!!"
Then we both busted out laughing.

My own personal viewpoint is basically this, liberals get egotistical satisfaction from acting like they're the big altruists. We all have to take care of each other mentality. But the stereotype is, that they talk the talk but don't walk the walk.
I believe in pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. I believe I had the same opportunities in life that my multimillionaire boss had! He took them! To suggest that his wealth be redistributed, to me is immoral.
Dann757
 

Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:45 pm

samhill wrote:just what is it that makes a liberal immoral, & who are you to determine that?


I thought I and others answered that many times over in this thread. It is that need to control and dominate; to snuff out that which is inherent in human beings when it is contrary to their aims in establishing what, in their view, is a better society.

You have formed moral judgments many times over in this thread. I was not aware that I needed permission to form an opinion. I formed that opinion on the basis of studies I have read in the fields of anthropology, animal behavior, history and religion. And of course observations I have made in the course of my own life. Obviously you are free to form your own opinion, but it would be nice if that opinion was formed with some knowledge of what our species is and how it got that way; what it needs to thrive and what makes it go awry.

Maybe that should be the subject of another thread. It is really what I intended this one to be.
franco b
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:46 pm

Dann, I`m in agreement with some things but I don`t know where younz are getting to take from the wealthy & distribute it. Now if your talking about the tax hike on those making over a certain amount 250k I believe its not a hike, its allowing the temp. tax break that was given the wealthy to spur the economy to run out. Whats wrong with allowing them to pay a fair share? I have a x-brother in law thats in that bracket & when he was complaining I said give me that amt. & I`ll gladly pay the tax. I don`t begrudge his success or anything, hes a great BSer & has a wonderful business savvy. I wouldn`t want his job, the guys never home but loves it. In reality I think Nixon had a good thing with wage & price control but it wasn`t made greed proof & there were too many ways around it. I think the Iraq war was immoral, & the no-bid contracts with a Cheney tied Co. was immoral & most things about that war were immoral. When there is a two party system but its always the others fault thats immoral, our Gov. has been immoral for a very long time & greed has been the driving factor on all sides. But I certainly wouldn`t call another persons point of view immoral, I think thats what our country & constitution is all about. Heck even being retired I have a small business myself & love to make as much as I can but I do not screw over anyone to do it.
samhill
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: Dann757 On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:59 pm

Well, The Copenhagen Conference seemed to be part of that plan to redistribute wealth. A bunch of third world countries clamoring for free US Dollars! Now it may be immoral to want to retain the wealth of the US, while the third world sits in the dirt. I don't have the answer. It seems immoral to me to take any wealth from the US taxpayer and pledge it to countries looking for more handouts.
And Pelosi saying they will do whatever it takes to push through the health care bill? Check out this quote:

Success is the sole earthly judge of right or wrong. - Adolf Hitler

I think it's interesting to call the war immoral, but you still want to put cheap gas in your truck just like I do! I'm just talking here, and by the way you made me miss Glenn Beck lol.
Dann757
 

Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:05 pm

samhill wrote:Whats wrong with allowing the [wealthy] to pay a fair share [in taxes]?

Heck even being retired I have a small business myself & love to make as much as I can but I do not screw over anyone to do it.


You think the wealthy don't pay their fair share in taxes? I have told you time and time again, the top 2% of taxpayers pay half of all the tax money while the bottom half of the taxpayers pay NONE at all. Some get a return of money despite not paying any withholding. What part of that don't you understand? What tax rate would have you believe that the wealthy are paying their fair share?

How do you judge when a business is "screwing over" its clients?

My father told me this: Short of a crime committed against Mike, the only person that can "screw over" Mike is Mike.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:22 pm

Mike you can`t seem to get past that top 2% pay 50% of all tax thing, I don`t know where that comes from but I won`t dispute it (getting tired of being called immoral & getting nowhere. But heres a factiod for you the U.S. is second only to the Swiss in the top 10% owning most of the countries wealth. You explain to me what any person does to not only deserve a salary in the high millions & then get millions in bonus.
Dann, if I made you miss any of Beck then my job here is done.
samhill
 
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