The Immorality of the Left

Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:31 pm

samhill wrote:Mike you can`t seem to get past that top 2% pay 50% of all tax thing, I don`t know where that comes from but I won`t dispute it (getting tired of being called immoral & getting nowhere. But heres a factiod for you the U.S. is second only to the Swiss in the top 10% owning most of the countries wealth. You explain to me what any person does to not only deserve a salary in the high millions & then get millions in bonus.
Dann, if I made you miss any of Beck then my job here is done.


Sam, YOU as an individual are NOT immoral. We are making the point that the policies of the left are immoral. Forgive me if I ever called you immoral. I don't think I did, but if I did in the heat of the moment, I apologize.

There are two sets of morals at odds here: Absolute morality (the law of Nature) and secular humanism. Adherence to either doesn't necessarily follow party lines. Certainly you have made your opposing viewpoint known, that is, that you view the policies of the right as immoral and you have stated your case.

All I want to debate at this point was your threshold for wealth immorality. At what point is a rich man immorally rich? At what point does he pay enough in tax to be moral in your eyes or the eyes of the left?

My figures on the tax thing are a little off because I pulled them from memory but this page will convey the same message accurately. It is a government document describing who pays the income tax in America. It isn't the poor. There are damn few rich people who have zero or negative liability while there are multitudes of poor who file with zero or negative tax liability. The case that the rich don't pay their fair share just doesn't wash.

http://www.jct.gov/x-45-00.pdf
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:40 pm

Mike, just for the heck of it I googled (% of tax wealthy pay in U.S.) your figures are more than a little off. And as far as negative taxes, I believe that its a lot harder to skimp by on 10 to 20k than it is 100 to 200 k & those are the low ballers, lets get real. Look it up for yourself.
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:19 pm

Sam please go to the government link I referenced, look at the first chart. Go to the line showing taxpayer filings over $200,000. The numbers are: 2.2% of the wealthy pay 42.7% of all income tax. (From recall I said 2% paid 50%--I was NOT far off.)

Then go to the far right hand column and read the information posted there for the various tax brackets relating the per cent of returns filed having zero or negative tax liabilities. The facts show that there are nearly no rich people who have zero or negative tax liabilities, while the left continually makes the false claim that many of the rich don't pay any taxes or pay less
than the poor. If a rich person has a negative tax liability it has to do with a carry back. If a poor person has a negative tax liability they likely got an EIC handout from the government which was paid for by the wealthy.

Please post your google information so that all may scrutinize it. Thanks.

Then you can make your apology.
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:34 pm

samhill wrote:And as far as negative taxes, I believe that its a lot harder to skimp by on 10 to 20k than it is 100 to 200 k


It's not the rich person's problem that someone has to "skimp by" on 10-20K per year. It's the poor person's obligation to care for themselves, the disabled excepted. It is not immoral to be industrious. The slothful have the morality problem if they have the ability and opportunity to do more.


BTW, most people in the world live on far less than $10,000 per year.
Last edited by Richard S. on Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: <removed dead link>
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:40 am

Mike, drop down to the second chart that shows the outlay. Besides that what do you propose we as a moral christian country do with what you call the slothful? Now some of these could just be the new age sloths that after having worked all their lives lost their jobs thru no fault of their own & can`t find employment. Many many of these people are going to be amoung your slothful. Even besides the new age sloths believe it or not mike in our country great as it is not all are born or created equal & not all are afforded the same opportunities nor do we all have the same abilities.
I will grant you there are some in this country that have been lets say using the system for generations but not all, and once again I know it will be the libs fault IYO for all of this but just what should we do?
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:53 pm

samhill wrote:Mike, drop down to the second chart that shows the outlay. Besides that what do you propose we as a moral christian country do with what you call the slothful? Now some of these could just be the new age sloths that after having worked all their lives lost their jobs thru no fault of their own & can`t find employment. Many many of these people are going to be amoung your slothful. Even besides the new age sloths believe it or not mike in our country great as it is not all are born or created equal & not all are afforded the same opportunities nor do we all have the same abilities.
I will grant you there are some in this country that have been lets say using the system for generations but not all, and once again I know it will be the libs fault IYO for all of this but just what should we do?


The second chart refers to total federal tax liability. The first chart refers to federal income tax liability which is what we were discussing. The other taxes are user taxes, like social security and excise taxes, paid by those who actually receive the benefits paid for by the tax. Please stay on track or I will think you are deflecting -- yet again (It's a liberal's trait).

Judgment of a soul is the Lord's realm, but so is the ability to save one. The moral Christian teaches the sinner by example. If there is no example, there is no lesson. The left does not provide such a lesson to the slothful when it rewards their behavior. Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he never goes hungry.

Did you check out the CIA fact book data? The average per capita income in the world is somewhere between $5000 and 8500 per year. The US was about $34,000. The US provides the best opportunity in the world (among large nations) to live well with minimal effort. If you can't live well in this country you won't live well anywhere. It just doesn't get any better than this. Greater expectations are a liberal pipe dream unless of course you wish to ignore the Constitution mandate to protect life, liberty, and property in order to steal from the wealthy.
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:17 pm

tax justice blogspot .com/U.S. wealthy how much do they pay , try that one mike.
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:41 pm

Linky no worky.

But please tell us all why we should prefer information from a blog when you can have it straight from the Joint Congressional Committee on Taxation? Don't you trust Charlie Rangel?

My work is done here. Later.
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:28 pm

Mike, your link was for almost ten years ago before the Bush big boys tax cut. Your right I`m out of here.
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:03 pm

Sorry Sam, I can't end it on that kind of ignorant statement from you. The Bush tax cuts were not significant enough to imply that the rich don't pay the bulk of the taxes in the US. Here's the chart that will set you straight. Take note of the tax burden for the top 1% of earners has increased from 25% of all tax paid to 40% of all tax paid since 1987. The tax burden of the bottom 95% of all taxpayers has decreased from 57% to 38% in the period 1987-2007. These figures include social security payroll taxes, among others.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/graph- ... -bottom-95

I earlier made the point that the only people who could get an income tax break would be the rich. Now Samhill you have come full circle to make my point by noticing that the rich got the bulk of the Bush tax cut! Anything else would be impossible. How much can you cut the income tax for someone in the lowest brackets who doesn't pay any?

Here's the same information for the 2004 tax year, that was AFTER the Bush tax cuts. It's less but not much less. My point has been that the rich pay the bulk of the income taxes and, for some unknown reason, you cannot fathom that, even when faced with the cold facts.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/fracti ... -year-2004

In the simplest terms, the top 20% of tax filers paid 35% of all income taxes while the bottom 20% of all tax filers paid just 4% of all income tax.

In 2005, there were 43 mil (out of 134 million total) income earning returns that got all they paid in, or more, back from the federal government.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/number ... eturn-2005
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:09 pm

Funny thing mike I went to the conservative tax foundation site & looked around, they ought to at least take the fox logo out of the background on the directors message. Then I looked up how unbiased they were. I do check out some things before I say something mike so I`d like to not be called ignorant if you don`t mind. I guess right wing computers don`t go to all sites so once again mike I`m outta here this is way too old. (& I hope you take notice there was no name calling or anything else from me)
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:34 pm

How Should Journalists Describe Us?
The Tax Foundation is a nonpartisan tax research group based in Washington, D.C.

I checked out that site, it didn't seem conservative to me, it seemed informative. I could not find the "Fox Logo".

samhill wrote:Dann, if I made you miss any of Beck then my job here is done.


Why, that sounds positively....fascist.

I don't want you to miss Rachel Maddow.
Dann757
 

Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:37 pm

Go to the home page, on the right top side click on a message from Scott Hodge. Toward the end of his little talk it will be in the background over his left shoulder. Now I guess I`m a fascist, will my names ever cease. Go on a search engine such as google or yahoo & simply ask about how unbias they are.
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Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:51 pm

How is it, that in such a detailed examination of a non-partisan website, you overlooked all the information presented to you, also presented by Mike, in order to find some proof of it's bias?
Tell me what makes you so determined to defend the left. I just don't get it. Do you want government to control your life? Do you think all the rich are evil?
And my "fascist" remark was a response to your comment on my quip about missing Glen Beck. It was a jab, I apologise. I think Glen Beck is a patriot and I agree with his message. Have you ever considered his point of view, or do you just dismiss it, as you have dismissed all other points of view here?

This information is also on the website:
"Hodge has conducted over 600 radio and television interviews—including NBC Nightly News, CBS Nightly News, CNN, Fox Network, Hardball with Chris Mathews, and C-SPAN. In addition, he has contributed to stories on wasteful spending aired by ABC's "Prime-Time Live" and "20/20," and NBC's "Fleecing of America." "

Thanks for making me aware of The Tax Foundation website, I sure would like to know where the tax dollars are going.

Oh, by the way, here's another quote:
"The [Tax] Foundation’s distinguished record of accomplishment should be a source of pride to its members, who deserve the thanks of all our citizens for their dedication to a task which contributes so much to the effective functioning of the American democratic system." —President John F. Kennedy
Dann757
 

Re: The Immorality of the Left

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:44 am

Dann, I was only pointing out that it is not an unbiased group, how ever they describe themselves. I Can`t recall ever seeing or hearing any group, business or service claiming to be #2 except I believe it was hertz with their we try harder campaign. Actually I have & still do on occasion listen to Beck & sometimes he does have some very good points & other times I think being dry is really taking a toll on him. He`s an entertainer, he had an addiction which he turned into a passion to entertain, good for him but his messages are not always too stable. At least he did give the Rep. party a little wake-up call. I could give you any # of economists with different views, the truth I believe is somewhere in the middle. The false economy we have been living (worldwide) has been screwed up for so long its impossible to find the start. And I don`t dismiss different views, I listen & watch & investigate on several different fronts then point out what I might have found, left -right or inbetween unlike others. Everything is not right or right, look in the other direction once in awhile there is normally a medium that I think is more on line with reality. If everyone was in like agreement there would be no need for discussion. That website is an old one, as many things I`m sure it started out neutral but if you search, nevermind. There are alot of things that started out OK & lost there way, & I don`t think that rich is evil nerver said I did, greed is a sin there is a difference, I would love to be rich but I am needy not greedy.
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