Toyota Recall

Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:16 pm

I don`t think it matters much what the problem is, the fact that they knew about it long before hand & did nothing for a long while & then blaming floor mats. All the cars makers are guilty of it, the pay the odds but this time they lost.
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:45 am

Dann757 wrote:Fly by wire gas pedal seems scary to me but that's progress.


I don't see it as progress. They've taken a simple mechanical device that has worked practically flawlessly forever. What's the advantage other than the removal of one cable? The disadvantages are many such as adding yet another part that will be very expensive to fix and something else that will be needed to diagnosed.
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:28 am

Its exactly what they want, expensive parts, more & more parts have to come from the dealer (no aftermarket) for example I just had a 99 ford cargo van inspected & it needed a back-up light switch. Simple fix right, except the switch (now electronic ) is $110.00, needless to say I now have a toggle switch on my dash for when I need to see backing up. They want you to buy new instead of paying big bucks for every inspection or fix.
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:52 am

Richard S. wrote:
Dann757 wrote:Fly by wire gas pedal seems scary to me but that's progress.


I don't see it as progress.

Progress would be an improvement, a more expensive device with an exponentially higher probability of failure isn't progress in my book. Unless defined by whether you are paying for it or getting paid for it in this case.

A $11 dollar cable vs. a $110 ECM based assembly + related parts and cost to deal with it + glitch = disaster for world's most powerful car company. Doesn't appear to be a formula for success.
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:03 am

Most aircraft use fly by wire, some like Airbus have known issues.

The pilots that fly them have said it's like having a committee at the yoke making decisions for you and in the end the computer retains 51% of the vote.

Boeing engineers on the other hand, put the final control modes solely in the hands of the pilot, which reinforces the adage :

"If it's not Boeing I'm not going."

Here is a flow chart of flight control "laws" for the Airbus computer : http://www.airbusdriver.net/airbus_fltlaws.htm

ETA : From what I understand with the Airbus computer, the software corrections were programed with the interest of fuel economy in mind.


http://www.seattlepi.com/business/boe202.shtml
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
Last edited by Black_And_Blue on Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: gaw On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:03 am

I think Detroit Diesel started with their DDEC electronics back in the late 80s or early 90s. I know they were available on the 92 series 2 cycles before or about the time the 60 series were coming out. They may have been the first electronic throttles in diesels, I don’t know for sure. Some of the earlier diesels with electronic throttle pedals I drove had terrible response. The lag time was a pain in the ass and messed up your rhythm for double clutching. Like anything else you got used to it and they have gotten much better over the years. All of my personal vehicles still have throttle cables.

Here is a thought, if everyone drove a manual shift how hard would it be to stop if the accelerator stuck even in a panic situation? Even with an automatic, come on folks just bump the shifter into neutral. The manufacturers are trying to use electronics to take all skill and judgment out of driving, to almost make the car drive itself, but what do you do when all the electronic stuff malfunctions?

The crisis continues…
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:15 am

Well Gee, concidering our new wave of skilled drivers can drive warp speed spacecraft and transformer world killer robots before there in kidnergarden.......

what they really need now are bluetooth wireless link controllers for the teens to drive from the back seat while......"studying".....!!

the real issue is the age of designers coming around are all molded from the injectionmold crowd and pennies for profit crowd and look what i can do crowd... instead of our forefathers type of make it work,make it strong like bull, make it in America and show those others how its done RIGHT.

greed,power,and control...... killer of common sense :(

this issue turns out is a spring tension thing and more realistically a shoe vs pedal ergonomics issue sort of like the audi and killer cruise control baby killing problem of the early day's..
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:23 am

Black_And_Blue wrote:Most aircraft use fly by wire, some like Airbus have known issues.


But in the case of an airplane it is progress and necessary.
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:27 am

Poconoeagle
 
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: europachris On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:44 am

gaw wrote:Here is a thought, if everyone drove a manual shift how hard would it be to stop if the accelerator stuck even in a panic situation? Even with an automatic, come on folks just bump the shifter into neutral. The manufacturers are trying to use electronics to take all skill and judgment out of driving, to almost make the car drive itself, but what do you do when all the electronic stuff malfunctions?

The crisis continues…


Gimme a break - the cop and his family killed in the Toyota had 52 seconds to make a 911 call but was *censored* stupid enough to not realize to a) turn off the ignition, b) slam on the brakes, or c) put it into neutral? Jeezuz Christ, that should have been drilled into him during Cop 101 training. :yearight:

I don't know if Toyota has any logic in the ECM to roll back power if the driver stands on the brake pedal. I know my VW does - I can step on the brake and floor the accelerator and the rpm goes up to 1200 or so and just sits there. If my accelerator stuck, I'd just hit the brake pedal and stop. I also have a clutch, ignition, and gearshift to "save" me. :gee:

I had to do a lot of emergency training for my pilot license - engine-out, unusual attitudes, spins, stalls, etc. Maybe driver's ed cars should have a gas pedal on the instructor's side so the instructor can give the student a "stuck" pedal?? I also think driver's ed should teach actual skids and other emergency driving techniques as well as simple rules like staying out of the left lane unless you are passing. :out:
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: Yanche On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:23 am

Now wait a minute and think. Any electronic fuel metering system has to have a potentiometer or equivalent sensor. How the hell else can you adjust the amount of fuel? It's all about where it's physically located. With the early throttle body injection systems the potentiometer was on the carb. The mechanical linkage moved it and the air valve. Now the potentiometer is at the petal. So what, it's not a different system design, the wires just run in a different place. Replacing the mechanical linkage with wires removes the placement restrictions of a throttle cable. Exactly why airplanes are fly by wire.
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: europachris On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:33 am

:rockon: Yanche!

It's not the technology that is the problem - it is how it is applied, meaning either improper technology for the task or the proper technology IMPROPERLY applied. Under-engineering, over-cost reducing, poor quality control...all contribute the definition of improper. I run across it ever day at work and at home.
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:04 pm

As stated, the added redundancies needed for electronic systems don't really warrant their use in an automobile, IMO.
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: topper On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:06 pm

Here is an example of some "older" technology which, I believe, has resulted in the largest automobile recall ever - and it is still going on - there are always "issues" - nothing new under the sun today re toyota - just too much media coverage jacking some of us up...

http://www.insideline.com/ford/ford-rec ... llion.html
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Re: Toyota Recall

PostBy: SMITTY On: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:26 pm

My buddy just called me up a few minutes ago. He's replacing an EGR valve on a Dodge SUV. Someone told him he has to have the computer reflashed after he replaces it for $100??? WTF is that?? Never heard of such a thing, just for a simple part replacement. Usually just clear the code & go on your merry way, but who knows nowadays ... :roll: Glad I don't own a Dodge!

In this wonderful state, you won't get a sticker until it's fixed. Driving without a sticker, or with a rejection sticker gives the state a green light to extort as much money from you as they see fit. The hidden tax.

The more work I do on new cars, the more I want to dust of the 'Camino. Carb, distributor & battery ..... that's all that's needed to make an engine run & get you from point A to point B. Thank the treehuggers for all of this BS... :mad:
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