snow , snow and more snow.

Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:03 pm

Hey Kevin,
Here's a couple of old quotes that I posted elsewhere here.

See if you can google "The Great Global Warming Scam", or try " Lord Monckton".
If you wonder why people are furious at you, consider your absolute statements such as climate change deniers are an extreme small fringe group. Do you just want to piss people off or do you want to consider other outlooks. There is a lot of information out there that supports AGW as doubtful. You're obviously intelligent, but the more you write, the more apparent it becomes that you're getting off on the reactions you're provoking. Are you the kind of guy that walks into a bar and gets tossed through the front window 30 seconds later?

You're the first proponent of cap and trade I've ever heard of. Maybe you want to be subjugated and controlled by the NWO. Maybe you don't need to work for a living. Maybe you've been indoctrinated by a liberal education, which some people believe is one of the steps in overthrowing the USA.

If you're gonna take off because three people hate you already, go ahead.

There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth. - A petition organized by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, which was signed by over 17,000 scientists (none of whom has a vested interest in polluting industries)

Consider this. The same groups now preaching environmental hellfire and brimstone were predicting a new ice age just twenty years ago. In the 1970s headlines warned "Earth may be headed for another ice age" (The New York Times) with "extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation" and "a full-blown 10,000-year ice age" (Science magazine). "Brace Yourself for Another Ice Age" (Science Digest), because there were "ominous signs" that "the Earth's climate seems to be cooling down," and "meteorologists are almost unanimous" that "the trend will reduce agricultural productivity" (Newsweek). "Glaciers had "begun to advance" and armadillos were retreating south from Nebraska (The Christian Science Monitor). - Jon Perdue, "Global Warming is Hot Air",The New Australian, 15-21 March 1999
Dann757
 

Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: Kevin H On: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:46 pm

No I think I'll hang out awhile, we're having such a nice little discussion here. Back and forth the conversation's been going, I'm mostly alone in my opinion but I don't believe anyone, save for maybe you, actually hates me.

The petition you have presented refers only to man-made global warming. It is those who say it's flat out not happening that are in the fringe - A group you do not belong to as we established earlier.

Why do you become so angry? "Maybe you want to be subjugated and controlled by the NWO. Maybe you don't need to work for a living. Maybe you've been indoctrinated by a liberal education, which some people believe is one of the steps in overthrowing the USA." What kind of a statement is that? And since we're still trying to make progress as your quote says, in what way do you think supporting cap and trade means you don't have to work for a living, or indicates that I want to overthrow the USA? And what specifically do you have against it?

I'll continue the discussion until such a time that I feel nobody's listening or interested in what I have to say, thanks.......
Kevin H
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska

Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: freetown fred On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:29 am

Kevin,reading through all this--I couldn't help but notice & question the fact that 2 points were put in one paragraph that I found ridiculous---them being---current administration & without significant economic impact---I must ask--do you ever take yourself out of those books & look around???nothing personal son :shock:
Kevin H wrote:Franco, unfortunately any reform whatsoever could be interpreted as repression. If we knew for an absolute fact beyond the shadow of a doubt that our ability to inhabit this earth would be shattered in 10 years if we didn't slow consumption... Should it become a law then? Your two initial suggestions had you been king of the world could be seen as oppression. Why should anyone be forced to limit the size of their engine, and in a "Free" country, shouldn't someone be able to produce then destroy anything they want?

I think the current administration had tried to do a number of things that would curtail waste without significant economic impact. Most analysts from both parties touted Cash for Clunkers as a *HUGE* success. Now they're trying to pass subsidies for people to better weatherproof their houses, being coined "Cash for Caulkers" (I hate these catch phrases by the way) and the republicans are framing it as a joke, a waste. I think cap and trade and investment in smart-grid technology are brilliant solutions that would make a huge impact, but the republicans are fully against both. I don't know why, they seem to be against anything the democrats support; Even cap and trade which is not only a free-market policy, but was a republican policy initially! I refuse to tailspin out of control on this, but they really are presenting themselves as the party of "no" on this issue; The only solution is to drill, drill, drill, which in my mind would have devastating consequences.

I think that the free market already allows for innovation. Whatever the next big thing is that reduces emmissions significantly will probably also save people a lot of money, because it's probably low emission because it's extremely efficient. Whoever comes up with that thing, whatever it is... He ain't ever gonna have to worry about rent again, thats for sure. But the problem is it's not happening fast enough. Emissions aside, the cost of energy is just up, up, up, and those who provide it don't care because it's commodity. They'll just raise and lower the price to market clearing level, hell with the consumer. There comes a point when the government has to say "No, you can't do that anymore." It's the responsibility of We, the People, to determine when that time comes.

And of course I'd be a fool to disagree when you say there are sharlitans trying to cash in on this. Many people become very wealthy by exploiting people's fears. Every war, public health crisis, national tragedy, global epidemic in history has produced profiteers who shamelessly take people's fears to the bank. I don't think Al Gore is one of these people. He made his documentary and cashed in big in both dollars and rapport, but some of you seem to think he's continually milking this for all its worth. I just don't see it. I really think he believes what he's saying and cares about the planet's future. It's up to the scientists to determine it's significance, and most of them seem to agree with him.
freetown fred
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: Dann757 On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:53 pm

Kevin H wrote:Why do you become so angry?


Great question! Maybe it's your writing style.



June 24, 2009
The High Cost of Cap and Trade: Why the EPA and CBO Are Wrong
by heritage.org
Fact Sheet #34
The EPA Is Wrong

•False Assumptions: Proponents of cap and trade point to the low cost estimates by the EPA and CBO as a reason to pass Waxman-Markey. The EPA underestimates that the bill would cost households an additional $140 a year.
•Based on Consumption: The EPA's numbers are based on consumption changes, which are typically less than income changes, as families respond to income losses by saving less.
•Uses Discounting: Discounting is a reasonable approach for comparing costs and benefits that occur at widely different times. However, costs of climate change rarely use a discounted rate this high. Without discounting, the impact per household is $1,288 in 2050. Adjusting household size to reflect a family of four raises this cost to over $1,900.
•Assumes Rebates: The EPA assumes all the allowance proceeds will be rebated directly to consumers. This clearly isn't the case, since most of the allowances have been promised to industry.
•No New Taxes?The loss that the EPA calculates doesn't include the cost of the energy tax to consumers, since the EPA assumes that all of the money is rebated. The cost of the energy tax is actually $4,600 per family of four in 2035.
The CBO Is Wrong

•False Assumptions: CBO underestimates that the bill would cost households $175 in 2020. They assume that the carbon tax isn't a tax if the government spends the money. When have Americans ever seen all of a tax returned to them? It's like suggesting your tax rebate will be as large as the amount taken from your paycheck every year.
•Numbers Don't Add Up: The CBO's allowance cost numbers don't add up. They say the allowance price will be $28. Since there are 5.056 billion tons of CO2 equivalent in the cap that year, that implies a $141 billion gross cost. They list $91.4 billion.
•Hard to Believe: In the CBO's June 5 analysis, they projected allowance revenues of $119.7 billion, $129.7 billion, $136 billion, $145.6 billion and $152.9 billion for the years 2015-2019. It's hard to believe that the next number in that series would be $91.4 billion.
•Ignores Economic Damage: The CBO doesn't include the decrease in GDP as a result of the bill. The GDP hit in 2020 would be $161 billion (in 2009 dollars) according to our analysis. For a family of four, that is $1,870 that they ignore.
Cap and Trade Is Wrong

•It's a Massive Energy Tax
•It Will Not Make a Substantive Impact on the Environment
•It Will Kill Jobs
•It Will Cause Electricity Bills and Gas Prices to Sharply Increase
•It Will Outsource Manufacturing Jobs and Hurt Free Trade
•It Will Make You Choose among Energy, Groceries, Clothing and Haircuts
•It Will Be Highly Susceptible to Fraud and Corruption
•It Will Hurt Senior Citizens, the Poor, and the Unemployed the Worst
•It Will Cost American Families Nearly $3,000 a Year
•President Obama Admitted "Electricity Rates Would Necessarily Skyrocket" Under His Cap-and-Trade Program (January 2008)
Dann757
 

Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:23 pm

The above post by Dann757 outlining what is patently WRONG with Cap and Trade makes me despise our current administration even more than ever. To outright state that the C&T would necessitate a big increase in electric costs is arrogance in it's raw state. There couldn't be a more inflationary thing to do to our economy than to increase fuel costs.

Anyone who suggests that ANY additonal tax on the taxpayers in this country is good for the country needs a reality check.. or stop living at home off of Mommy and Daddy. ANYONE who thinks about the very basics: EVERY product, EVERY purchase, EVERY service is dependant on energy, fuel costs, electicity, and all of these will be TAXED to feed the government PORK. And this does NOT help the country..

Cap and Trade is the worst thing that could happen to our country, other than another 4 years of the current administration.

If the government would get behind gassification of coal, turning coal into diesel, jet and gasoline,, we could shed the burden of imported-from-our-enemies oil. We became the great nation that we were/are because of our natural resources and industrial production. We can't retain our prosperity if we keep giving away to pay for fuel that we could produce here in our own country.

Greg L
LsFarm
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:43 pm

I don`t know, I just re-read thru a couple of different summaries of cap & trade & I tend to think of it as a good well thought out bill, perfect no but as with anything it gan be improved as time goes on. There has to be something done & this bill is phased in over a long period & isn`t so radical to cause giant cost or price increases. The price in mostly electric bills is from protections that were there coming to an end, everyone knew they were coming. If anything this comes too late but its a start.
Forgot to add its only my opinion based on what I have read, if it makes one feel better they are welcome call me names & threaten bodily harm or what ever but afterwards just add something constructive in a civil manner if you like.
samhill
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: truckrp97 On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:54 pm

i remember when i was 27, young and dumb,i thought gee if we could ban guns, that would be a good thing. everyone would be safe. now that im a lot older i see the folly in that belief. one day when ken h. matures he will see the folly in his current beliefs regarding climate change.cause thats all he's got his believing in someone else's propoganda.it seems to me you like aggravating people when you can hide behind a name in a forum.the c&t bill involves goverment telling you if your home meets green standards for selling, and that works out to about 3 agents approving or disapproving your home for sale.and if your a buyer you gotta have a green mortgage too. are you an agent for the government samhill?
truckrp97
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:49 pm

Just heard on the radio that Phil Jones has testified that there has been no increase in global temperatures since 1995. The crackpots are beginning to crack.

Energy prices have more than doubled from a few years ago. The spike in oil prices of a year ago or so came about in the face of increased supply and lower demand. I think speculation in the futures market, of which there is little doubt of it being the cause, needs further regulation.

Before you lefties go all atwitter over that statement, be aware that conservatives favor free markets, not manipulated markets, whether caused by government or others.

My favoring smaller engines is to lower demand and prices through reduced consumption. Everybody benefits, nobody gets hurt.

The view that cap and trade is a good idea harbored by seemingly well meaning people just leaves many of us stupefied as to the reasoning behind it. I know why politicians want it but it is the others I can't understand. Is it naivety or just plain ignorance? The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and that road has so many signs posted you have to be blind not to see them.
franco b
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:11 pm

As you just said if you lower consumption demand & price should follow, now besides reduced emissions newer tech. should go hand in hand with lowering consumption. Using fuels that would otherwise end up in landfills, gradually modernizing the way we burn exhisting fuel it all helps. A small savings starts adding up real quick, these Gov. buildings I`ve been in lately are all too warm in my opinion, getting more mpg should be major concern I recently read somewhere that we are just barely above the average mpg as the model A. Sure you weren`t going 70 mph with the AC blasting but we should still be better than that. I personally think its sad that Gov. has to have any regulations but the greed factor over rides everything else these days. I believe that these times are going to go down as some of the saddest in American history.
samhill
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: cntbill On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:19 pm

Kevin H wrote:
I think the current administration had tried to do a number of things that would curtail waste without significant economic impact. Most analysts from both parties touted Cash for Clunkers as a *HUGE* success.
Kevin, nothing against you, just cash for clunkers

While a little off the subject, I've been reading this thread as interesting reading but came across this phrase about "Cash for Clunkers" and couldn't disagree more. To me is seems the only people that benefited from this deal are either the wealthy or at least the well off. Where did this help the poor people? Losing my job, my credit went down the crapper, and the vehicles I could afford were being traded in as a clunker and could not be sold, even being better than the vehicle I own. A lot of good vehicle parts that people without a good income whom would use, used parts to repair their vehicle, the parts were no longer available. Just pisses me off to see a perfectly good vehicle get scrapped when there are those who could have benefit from it.

While I do agree pollutants are not good for anyone, but didn't Al Gore say something to the effect that he was responsible for Inventing the Internet? Sorry kind of hard to take what he has to say seriously. And to me it just seems to be that today's government is just a bunch of money mongers..... Just IMHO
cntbill
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: Kevin H On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:25 pm

truckrp97 wrote:i remember when i was 27, young and dumb...one day when ken h. matures he will see the folly in his current beliefs regarding climate change.


That's precisely the sort of thing we don't need here. My variance with your opinion does not make me dumb or immature.

Being conservative does not make you smarter than me, or more patriotic, or love America more. I love this country too, so do most liberals, democrats, Barack, and the scientists working on environmental issues. We are not part of a black helicopter conspiracy, secretly plotting to take your money and destroy the economy simply because we're sociopaths. All are meaning well, most of our goals are identical. How to achieve those goals are the major part of the debate.

I'll check out some more stuff later, up against the clock... However what I have discovered so far, Heritage.org is a conservative site, it is not unbiased. It's very proudly biased to the right, which is OK, it is their right. Just keep in mind you are finding the answer you are seeking. I have no doubt that I could find dozens of left-biased sites who agree with me, and I wouldn't expect you to accept that as evidence, as you should not expect me to accept their "report" as evidence....
Kevin H
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska

Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:27 pm

samhill wrote:As you just said if you lower consumption demand & price should follow, now besides reduced emissions newer tech. should go hand in hand with lowering consumption. Using fuels that would otherwise end up in landfills, gradually modernizing the way we burn exhisting fuel it all helps. A small savings starts adding up real quick, these Gov. buildings I`ve been in lately are all too warm in my opinion, getting more mpg should be major concern I recently read somewhere that we are just barely above the average mpg as the model A. Sure you weren`t going 70 mph with the AC blasting but we should still be better than that. I personally think its sad that Gov. has to have any regulations but the greed factor over rides everything else these days. I believe that these times are going to go down as some of the saddest in American history.


Now you went and spoiled it. How can I call you names when you write such sense? I think you are just trying to deny us the therapy of lambasting you.
franco b
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:49 pm

Go ahead & call all you want, when your calling me names your leaving someone else alone, just please leave some sensible input after you have vented.
samhill
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: Duengeon master On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:24 pm

It just started snowing at my house a few minutes ago. :)
Duengeon master
 
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Re: snow , snow and more snow.

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:33 pm

samhill wrote:Go ahead & call all you want, when your calling me names your leaving someone else alone, just please leave some sensible input after you have vented.


Your sense of self sacrifice is commendable but why do you have to leave a string attached?
franco b
 
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