Wanting to burn coal

Wanting to burn coal

PostBy: shorty27 On: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:51 pm

hello all. Stumbled across this site while looking for info. I have a Crown Royal stove and I burn wood. Really like it but want to burn coal. Stove is able to burn wood, coal or corn.
What size should I get. How long will a normal burn last and is there any smell with the Anthracite coal? I know a few people that burn coal in these stoves and they say there is no smoke. I haven't had a chance to ask them these other questions.

Thamks for any help
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PostBy: tstove On: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:54 pm

Nice deck,snow,trees.How about a picture of the stove :P Welcome to the forum.Some pics of the stove will help the guys here help you.The only time I get any smell is for about five to ten min. after loading the stove and that smells like sulfer outside.If the stove is hand fired you want either stove size or nut size.I don't get any smoke from mine.Burn time could be 2 hours up to to 20 hours just depends on your stove.
tstove
 
Stove/Furnace Make: russo,gibralter
Stove/Furnace Model: c-55,cfi

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:55 pm

Hi Shorty, welcome to the forum.

Can you take a photo of your grate and firebox and post it??

I did a Google search and was able to find a few sites with your outdoor stove for sale, but none of the literature shows much about how it is designed.

What anthracite coal likes is a deep firebox, a bed of coals at least 10-14" deep. The sides should be firebrick to protect the steel of the stove. Most of the wood burning outdoor stoves don't have firebrick, and have a very long shallow firebox, built on the bottom of a cylinder.

If you have a flat bottom firebox and can make a false back wall in the front of the firebox, block the grate behind this false back wall, then you may have some luck burning coal.

I had to do all the above to get coal to burn fairly well in my custom made wood and coal burning boiler. See the photo below to see the false back wall I made for my firebox.

I would buy either nut or stove size anthracite coal. .

Hope this helps. Greg L
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I made a heavy steel foot that closely covered the grate, blocking any air going anywhere but under the coal fire.
There is a steel framework holding the firebrick in the back wall.
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LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland


PostBy: keyman512us On: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:02 pm

Hello Shorty,
...Welcome to the forum. Your post is a familiar one here. First off get to know the site... "Stumbling across" this site makes you fortunate and lucky. I too am rather new here myself and I will offer the following advice: Fix up a cup of coffee (or other beverage of choice) and start "surfing through" the posts both new and old here. Ask questions at will without fear. The members of this forum you will soon find out are very helpfull, courteous, and will offer their "two-cents" in great detail. Introduce yourself (under the specific post and in detail, your location, and don't be afraid to put in lots of info). Many of your questions can probably be answered in previous posts, just do some digging, it is worth the time. Your questions about coal in general (and most importantly ANTHRACITE coal) can be found with some digging. The most important thing to keep in mind if you do decide to burn coal is to have patience. I have burned wood for many years and will tell you from personal experience that coal is a 'whole different animal' than wood. It does burn cleaner, longer and better...once you get the hang of it. Coal is a little tricky to get the hang of but is worth it in the long run.
I am not familiar with your particular stove...but would suggest if you have experiance burning wood....find a supplier in your area that sells "NUT" and "PEA" sized coal (prefferably bagged) buy 100#'s of each, get a hot wood fire going and when you get a good bed of "coals" going slowly transition the coal into the fire. Read through the posts about "getting a good fire going". All the info you need is here on the site...just do some reading.
...Once again welcome to the forum...enjoy, and good luck!
keyman512us
 

PostBy: shorty27 On: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:25 pm

tstove wrote:Nice deck,snow,trees.How about a picture of the stove :P Welcome to the forum.Some pics of the stove will help the guys here help you.The only time I get any smell is for about five to ten min. after loading the stove and that smells like sulfer outside.If the stove is hand fired you want either stove size or nut size.I don't get any smoke from mine.Burn time could be 2 hours up to to 20 hours just depends on your stove.


:lol: :arrow: That grayish black square at the end of the garage is the stove !!! it does have grates in the bottom of it. The slots are probably around an inch wide. There are 2 fans in the stove. One on top and one on the bottom that blows under what is burning. Works well. When the desired water temp. is reached, they kick off, when it drops the set amount of degrees down, the fans kick on. This temp. drop it adjustable. The firebox is 32" long close to that wide. No Fire Brick. What one person told me is that they had 2 steel plates made. They sit on opposite sides of the grates around 20" apart and about that high and they hold the coal in the center to get more coal control. I was also told that you want to have the stove turn on more often so the coal fire doesn't go out. I have mine set at 8 - 10 dedrees for the wood and was thinking around 3 or 4 degrees for the coal ??? What do you guys think???
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PostBy: LsFarm On: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:17 am

Hi Shorty, the steel plates that you describe are what are needed to get anthracite coal to burn in a boiler of your type.

A few comments from my experience with steel plates reducting the firebox.

You need to disconnect the fan that blows air above the fire. Coal will only burn with air coming up through coal from the bottom. Block the grate areas not in use. You want ANY and ALL air available to come up through the coal bed.

The unprotected steel walls won't like the red-to-white hot heat from the coal. The water jacket sides and bottom of the boiler will be cooled by the water, but the front and back reducer walls will get very hot and warp from the heat. I would figure out a way to add a layer of firebrick to protect the steel.

Firebrick are cheap. about a dollar each. You can use the half-thickness ones or the full thickness. I would also consider protecting the water jacket areas as much as possible, the boiler is not cheap and you don't want to damage the steel. The firebrick will reflect a lot of heat back into the coal bed, this is a good thing, protecting the steel and making the coal burn better.

You can buy a masonry cutting wheel that fits on the small 4.5" handheld grinders. The masonry wheel has a green label usually, and they are cheap, like $1.35 each. One of these wheels will cut a lot of firebrick to shape to fit around your new coal firebox.

Once you get the reduced firebox built, make a hot wood fire, when it has burnt down to hot coals, add a 2" deep layer of nut or stove coal. I wouldn't recomend Pea size, it will restrict the air flow too much. You want air passageways between the coal pieces. Use Pea only if you find you have enough heat but want to slow the burn rate down.

Let the first layer of Nut/stove coal get burning, then add a second 2-3" layer, let it get red. Then you can fill up the firebox, leave the combustion blower running for at least 30 minutes or so. Then you should see the blue/white flames above the coal.

With your outdoor boiler, you don't have a lot of natural draft, so the combustion fan will have to run more often to keep the fire going. If you had 12' of chimney, you could leave the 8-10* temp offset alone, but your comment about reducing the offset on the temp control MAY be needed. If you can, just observe how long the fire rests without the under fire combustion fan running, and watch the coal fire, to make sure it keeps going from what natural draft you have from your short chimney.

Hope this helps, let us know how it works out. A few extra photos of the firebox cleaned out when you are making and installing your reducer-walls, and any firebrick you install will be helpfull, as well as educational for the next new member doing the same opperation.

Take care, Greg L

.
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

PostBy: keyman512us On: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:09 pm

Hey Shorty...
...Nice set-up. What part of the country you from? How far away are your neighbors? What is the local mood on "outdoor boilers" where you are at? How long have you run it on wood? Any complaints? Been using my boiler for almost 3 years now...and have just recently decided to burn coal (neighbor issues). Curious if you are leaning towards coal to reduce your "signature on the neighbors/towns' radar scope". Seems to be the "movement" by most outdoor boiler owners. Hope to hear from all fellow "outdoor boiler" owners....
keyman512us
 

PostBy: shorty27 On: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:32 am

keyman512us wrote:Hey Shorty...
...Nice set-up. What part of the country you from? How far away are your neighbors? What is the local mood on "outdoor boilers" where you are at? How long have you run it on wood? Any complaints? Been using my boiler for almost 3 years now...and have just recently decided to burn coal (neighbor issues). Curious if you are leaning towards coal to reduce your "signature on the neighbors/towns' radar scope". Seems to be the "movement" by most outdoor boiler owners. Hope to hear from all fellow "outdoor boiler" owners....


I am from New York State. Just about middle of the state. Right at the bottom of the Adirondacks. Pretty rural. My town has less than 400 people. I live on the edge of town. Great neighbors.....except one. This one person has had a problem with my boiler since the first. Called and complained about the "smoke" before I ever had it hooked up. Everyone in town knows this guy is a complainer, but you know the old saying, squeeky wheel gets the grease. This has been the first year with the boiler. I love it. My buddy has had one for 5 years and I wanted to see how his worked. Very satisfied.

Have you used coal in yours yet and if so, hows it working? What kind of stove do you use.
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PostBy: e.alleg On: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:21 pm

that is the only drawback of an outdoor boiler IMO, neighbors and EPA regulations. We all know wood smoke is basically harmless but I have a feeling the outdoor boilers will be phased out altogether in the next 10 years.
e.alleg
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM
Stove/Furnace Model: 520

PostBy: shorty27 On: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:47 pm

e.alleg wrote:that is the only drawback of an outdoor boiler IMO, neighbors and EPA regulations. We all know wood smoke is basically harmless but I have a feeling the outdoor boilers will be phased out altogether in the next 10 years.


I don't think they will be phased out unless someone comes up with a better mouse trap. You will see more restrictions in towns and villages and also some kind of catalitic converters to be put on new models. This of course , in my opinion, is a waste of time. All my neighbors burn wood. They all do it inside of their houses. They all create smoke that I can both smell and see. The difference is that the outsoor boilers are kind of new and people don't know anything about them. Unfortunaltly they still voice their opinions. My stove heats my entire house and my water. There is no fire inside of my house to worry about catching fire. There is no wood or coal or pellets inside my house. I really like my stove. My house has never been this warm before. Oil cost me too much to keep my house very warm. My wife would be a nervous wreck with any kind of stove in the house. The whole world heated with wood or coal not even 100 years ago. Now it is a big deal to have a wood stove. I just don't get it. they say I create too much smoke but that is not true. I just want to heat my house and be left alone. I don't think that is too much to ask.


Sorry about the ramblings.
shorty27
 

Wood Combustion ByProducts

PostBy: BigBarney On: Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:30 am

e.alleg wrote:that is the only drawback of an outdoor boiler IMO, neighbors and EPA regulations. We all know wood smoke is basically harmless but I have a feeling the outdoor boilers will be phased out altogether in the next 10 years.


See report below!

Wood is no better and in many ways worse than coal.

Many of the compounds are known carcinogens in the wood smoke

So any leakage into the home is dangerous. At the date of this

report many of the listed Byproducts were considered non carcinogens

but are now highly regulated ie benzene,toulene etc.

Ted BigBarney


Chemicals listed here are only the tip of the iceberg - combustion variables lead to hundreds if not thousands of chemical combinations. Some are sweet smelling vanilla and others are known to be the most toxic chemicals on earth. Wood also carries mold spores, some are able to be cultured from wood ashe. (molds are listed at the bottom of the Table from above)

Cyanide contaminates water from biomass burning: Chemosphere, 2003.

Wood Burning Creates Dioxin, Radioactive Particles and Releases Stored Lead

Lead: produced from burning 2.2 pounds of wood = 0.1mg to 3 mg.
"Burning 1 kilogram of wood produced as much as 160 micrograms of total dioxins. This result was obtained when various specimens of wood were burned in different stoves. Soot was collected and analyzed by well-designed and documented procedures. Tetrachlorinated, hexachlorinated, heptachlorinated, octachlorinated dioxins were present. The isomers of the dioxins were separated and quantitated. The highly chlorinated dioxins were the major components. In the soot from a series of experiments, their total content ranged from 10 to 167 mg/kg of fuel. The total yields of tetrachlorinated dioxins (TCDDs) ranged from 0.1 to 7.8 mg/kg of fuel."
[Science, Vol. 266 Oct. 21, 1994,T.J. Nestrick and L.L. Lamparski, Anal. Chem. 54, 2292 (1982)].

"With the exception of some very low California readings, all measurements of wood ash with fallout-cesium exceeded - some by 100 times or more - the levels of radioactive cesium that may be released from nuclear plants (about 100 picocuries per kilogram of sludge). Wood ash-cesium levels were especially high in the Northeast" [Science News, 1991]

This information was published in 1993 EPA Report, A Summary of the Emissions Characterization and Noncancer Respiratory Effects of Wood Smoke, EPA-453/R-93-036 It can be ordered from the EPA at (919)-541-5344.
Chemical Composition of Wood Smoke

Species g/kg wood

Carbon Monoxide 80-370

Methane 14-25

VOCs (C2-C7) 7-27

Aldehydes 0.6-5.4

Formaldehyde 0.1-0.7

Acrolein 0.02-0.1

Propionaldehyde 0.1-0.3

Butryaldehyde 0.01-1.7

Acetaldehyde 0.03-0.6

Furfural 0.2-1.6 1.6

Substituted Furans 0.15-1.7

Benzene 0.6-4.0

Alkyl Benzenes 1-6

Toluene 0.15-1.0

Acetic Acid 1.8-2.4

Formic Acid 0.06-0.08

Nitrogen Oxides (NO,NO2) 0.2-0.9

Sulfur Dioxide 0.16-0.24

Methyl chloride 0.01-0.04

Napthalene 0.24-1.6

Substituted Napthalenes 0.3-2.1

Oxygenated Monoaromatics 1 - 7

Guaiacol (and denvatives) 0.4-1.6

Phenol (and denvatives) 0.2-0.8

Syringol (and derivatives) 0.7-2.7

Catechol (and denvatives) 0.2-0.8

Total Particle Mass 7-30

Particulate Organic Carbon 2-20

Oxygenated PAHs 0.15-1

Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH)

Fluorene 4x10-5 - 1.7x10-2

Phenanthrene 2x10-5 - 3.4x10-2

Anthracene 5x10-5 - 2.1x10-5

Methylanthracenes 7xl0-5 - 8x10-5

Fluoranthene 7xl0-4- 4.2xl0-2

Pyrene 8x10-4 - 3.1x10-2

Benzo(a)anthracene 4x10-4 - 2x10-3

Chrysene 5x104- 1x10-2

Benzofluoranthenes 6x10-4- 5x10-3

Benzo(e)pyrene 2x104 - 4x10-3

Benzo(a)pyrene 3x104- 5x10-3

Perylene 5x10-5 - 3x10-3

Ideno(1,2,3-cd)pyrene 2xl0-4- 1.3x10-2

Benz(ghi)perylene 3x10-5- 1.lx10-2

Coronene 8x10-4- 3x10-3

Dibenzo(a,h)pyrene 3x104- lx10-3

Retene 7x10-3 - 3x10-2

Dibenz(a,h)anthracene 2x10-5 - 2xl0-3

Trace Elements

Na 3x10-3 - 1.8xl0-2

Mg 2x10-4 - 3x10-3

Al 1x10-4 - 2.4x10-2

Si 3x10-4 - 3.1x10-2

S 1x10-3 - 2.9x10-2

Cl 7x10-4 - 2.1xl0-2

K 3x10-3 - 8.6x10-2

Ca 9xl0-4 - 1.8x10-2

Ti 4x10-5 - 3x10-3

V 2xl0-5 - 4x10-3

Cr 2x10-5 - 3x10-3

Mn 7xl0-5 - 4x10-3

Fe 3x10-4 - 5x10-3

Ni lxl0-6 - lx10-3

Cu 2x10-4 - 9x10-4

Zn 7xl0-4 - 8x10-3

Br 7x10-5 - 9x10-4

Pb lx10-4 - 3x10-3



Particulate Elemental 0.3 - 5

Carbon

Normal alkanes (C24-C30) 1x10-3 - 6x10-3

Cyclic di-and triterpenoids

Dehydroabietic acid 0.01 - 0.05

Isopimaric acid 0.02 - 0.10

Lupenone 2x10-3 - 8x10-3

Friedelin 4x10-6 - 2x10-5

Chlorinated dioxins 1xl0-5 - 4x10-5

Particulate Acidity . 7x10-3 - 7x10-2


1 Some species are grouped into general classes as indicated by italics.
2 To estimate the weight percentage in the exhaust, divide the g/kg value by 80. This assumes that there are 7.3 kg combustion air per kg of wood. Major species not listed here include carbon dioxide and water vapor (about 12 and 7 weight percent respectively under the assumed conditions.
3 At ambient conditions; V = vapor, P = particulate, and VIP = vapor and/or particulate (i.e., semi-volatile).
4 DeAngelis (1980)
5 OMNI (1988)
6 Lipari (1984), Values for fireplaces.
7 Edye et al (1991). smoldering conditions; other substituted furans include 2-furanmethanol, 2 acetylfuran, 5 methyl-2furaldehyde, and benzofuran.
8 Value estimated for pine from Edye et al (1991) from reported yield relative to guaiacol, from guaiacol values of Hawthorne (1989) and assuming particulate organic carbon is 50% of total particle mass.
9 Steiber et al (1992), values computed assuming a range of 3-20 g of total extractable, speciated mass per kg wood.
10 Khalil (1983)
11 Hawthorne (1989), values for syringol for hardwood fuel; see also Hawthorne (1988).
12 Core (1989), DeAngelis (1980), Kalman and Larson (1987).
13 From one or more of the following studies: Cooke (1981), Truesdale (1984), Alfheirn et al (1984), Zeedijk (1986), Core (1989), Kalman and Larson (1987); assuming a range of 7 to 30 grams of particulate mass per kg wood when values were reported in grams per gram of particulate mass. Similar assumptions apply to references 14,15 and references 17-19.
14 Core (1989), Kalman and Larson (1987)
15 Watson (1979), Core (1989), Kalman and Larson (1987)
16 Rau (1989), Core (1989)
17 Core (1989)
18 Standley and Simoneit (1990); Dehydroabietic acid values for pine smoke, lupenone and isopimaric acid values for alder smoke and friedlin values for oaf: soot.
19 Nestrick and Lamparski (1982), from particulate condensed on flue pipes; includes TCDDs, HCDDs, H7CDDs and OCDDS.
20 Burnet et al (1986); one gram of acid = one equivalent of acid needed to reach a pH of 5.6 in extract solution.
BigBarney
 

PostBy: shorty27 On: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:46 am

I don't think he is saying anything bad against coal. I think coal is great. I think we worry to much about all this stuff and as l.ong as you are responsible with whatever heat source you use, go ahead and use it. I am hoping my stove burns coal as well as the stoves I see on this forum.
shorty27
 

PostBy: e.alleg On: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:55 pm

you think that is bad, you should see the list of chemicals released by smoking cigarettes :shock:
e.alleg
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM
Stove/Furnace Model: 520

PostBy: jpen1 On: Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:49 pm

From what I have seen outdoor boilers work well and smoke very little when you have them cranked up. The problem is when people throw old pallets, paper, garbage, tires, unseasoned wood, and what ever else they can fit through the door in these things to heat their hot water in the summer. The guy down the road from me does this and it creates a huge plume of smoke because it just sits there and smolders. It is these few who ruin it for the people you use the boiler in the manner it was intended to be used. However I don't think they should ban burning coal even in the summer in a outdoor furnace. Even with the thing on an idle I don't see that it would put out all that much smoke or other emissions. And yes wood smoke by and large is far more dangerous as far as carcinegenic compounds. Benzene, toluene, formaldehyde and some of the esthers found in wood smoke are highly likely to cause lung and sinus cancers from prolonged exposure. This is another reason why they are putting bans on outdoor furnaces, that and the fact the smoke is so near the ground.
jpen1
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: 110 Boiler

PostBy: Berlin On: Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:41 pm

lack of firebrick to increase combustion temps, lack of effective secondary burn of any kind, and lack of high stack are the reasons for problems with outdoor boilers, one of the main ones being low stack height, the smoke cools and sits at ground level or thereabouts. raise the stack to 30' and most of the bitching will go away.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal