H.C. Reconcilliation Bill posted online

Re: H.C. Reconcilliation Bill posted online

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:46 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:CBO scoring shows that the bill will save $138B in the first decade ... the savings simply come from a redistribution of wealth specifically from the wealthiest to the poorest

Um, a savings is a savings and has nothing to do with redistribution. But since you raise the issue, there SHOULD be a redistribution from the wealthiest to the poorest. It's unconscionable the huge portion of wealth in this country controlled by a tiny percentage of the population. None of us coal burners here would suffer from that kind of redistribution, believe me.

Lest you brand me a true Socialist I will tell you a story a friend of mine likes to repeat:
John and Harry and a bunch of friends were talking in a bar. John said, "We should just take all the money in the country, put it in a pile, and divide 'er up evenly among all the people."
"Now John," Harry said. "You know if we did that you'd spend it all on beer in the first month, then you'd be flat broke again. Then what would you do?"
"Well," said John, "then we'd just divide 'er up again!"
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
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Re: H.C. Reconcilliation Bill posted online

PostBy: pvolcko On: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:52 pm

jpete wrote:
Carlos wrote:Most Americans want health care reform


Most Americans are drooling mouth breathers.....


That's not fair. Nothing wrong with wanting health care reform. I want it too.

The fact is the people, as evidenced by every poll out there, are strongly against this version of health care reform. They may like certain aspects of the proposal, but the whole as is represented in this set of bills has been resoundingly rejected by the people. It isn't a matter of educating the public. The public has scarcely been more engaged on a public policy issue. They know the broad strokes. They know many areas of detail. They know they don't trust congress to do this right and have come to distrust the President on this area, too. It is too big, too convoluted, too many games being played in the funding and budgeting, too many sweetheart deals to buy votes, too many exceptions for preferred interests, provisions to make it nearly impossible to repeal certain key sections of it, none of the simple cost containment measures suggested during the process, a mixed bag of demonization of the industry while simultaneously courting them, and a mixed bag of industry rejection and eager encouragement, unprecedented individual mandates, expansion of IRS (everyone's favorite agency) powers to enforce the mandates, ominous promises that this is all just a "first step"... and on and on.

The people do not want *this* health care reform, but they absolutely do want the right kind of reform.
pvolcko
 

Re: H.C. Reconcilliation Bill posted online

PostBy: pvolcko On: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:20 pm

rberq wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:CBO scoring shows that the bill will save $138B in the first decade ... the savings simply come from a redistribution of wealth specifically from the wealthiest to the poorest

Um, a savings is a savings and has nothing to do with redistribution. But since you raise the issue, there SHOULD be a redistribution from the wealthiest to the poorest. It's unconscionable the huge portion of wealth in this country controlled by a tiny percentage of the population. None of us coal burners here would suffer from that kind of redistribution, believe me.


Or course it's redistribution. It's all redistribution. And not just from the wealthy to the poor, also from the middle class to the poor.

Companies big and small will be forced to offer insurance or pay penalties. Not only for full time employees, but also for part timers. Either way this comes directly at the expense of employees and customers. Employees by reducing the wages to cover some part of the added overhead costs. If the employer doesn't cut wages, they will either fire some employees to use that piece of revenue to pay for it and/or they will slow the rate of wage increases that might otherwise have happened. Customers by increasing prices to make up for the increased overhead of employment. All employees from minimum wage to middle management will get pinched.

I'd argue that premiums will be going up across the board, particularly in the first 4-8 years, probably faster than they otherwise would have. But even if we accept that premiums will be lowered as a result in the influx of new premium payers, there previously uninsured (a great many of which are poor to middle class) will be forced to start paying for insurance, an expense they didn't have before this. As this is government mandated, it is a tax by another name on precisely the people who were promised they would not see their taxes increase so many times.

Why do I argue premiums will go up? Consider the number of people who will be entering vs the number that will either have partially or full subsidized premiums. This is the much talked about 40 million uninsured. Most could not afford it even if they wanted it. This group already uses services and their cost is either payed for by taxes or by higher than ideal premiums. By giving them insurance and indeed encouraging them to use the services, they will now be using services much more often, this will necessarily lead to increased health care costs (no additional supply, but 30-40 million more demanding) for insurers and thus require increased premiums. Arguments that increased non-emergency care will lead to cost savings are not at all established by available studies and evidence, and even if one buys the argument, it is always phrased as being a long term cost savings. The idea being that preventative care cuts down on mid and later life high cost medical situations, so we've got a long time to wait until these fabled savings occur. In the mean time the non-emergency care services are demanded more and costs go up both per visit and as a result of supply/demand.

Where is the money for subsidies coming from? From a $500billion cut in medicare (which itself creates all kinds of unintended consequences) and from taxing high income earners, non-exempted "cadillac" health insurance plans recipients, and higher taxes on investment income. Maybe the first one leaves the middle class untouched, but the last two certainly do not.

And when costs overrun projections, as we all know they inevitably will? That $130+ billion deficit "savings" will vanish very quickly and require more taxation and more cutting from other areas to cover it. Or maybe we'll just keep running the debt up at astronomical rates.

The only people that stand to benefit from this are the segment of uninsured people who will be getting full subsidized care or partially subsidized who actually need the services they will now paying for (assuming they don't consider the unconstitutional mandate to purchase insurance to be a step too far on philosophical grounds). The rest get screwed in varying degrees with the promise for a whole lot more screwing when the projections don't pan out and they end up being taxed more, premiums rise even faster, or price controls go into effect reducing their availability and quality of care, or the money supply is inflated (stealing the value of their assets and prior monitized labor).
pvolcko
 


Re: H.C. Reconcilliation Bill posted online

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:43 am

pvolcko wrote:
jpete wrote:
Carlos wrote:Most Americans want health care reform


Most Americans are drooling mouth breathers.....


That's not fair. Nothing wrong with wanting health care reform. I want it too.

The fact is the people, as evidenced by every poll out there, are strongly against this version of health care reform. They may like certain aspects of the proposal, but the whole as is represented in this set of bills has been resoundingly rejected by the people. It isn't a matter of educating the public. The public has scarcely been more engaged on a public policy issue. They know the broad strokes. They know many areas of detail. They know they don't trust congress to do this right and have come to distrust the President on this area, too. It is too big, too convoluted, too many games being played in the funding and budgeting, too many sweetheart deals to buy votes, too many exceptions for preferred interests, provisions to make it nearly impossible to repeal certain key sections of it, none of the simple cost containment measures suggested during the process, a mixed bag of demonization of the industry while simultaneously courting them, and a mixed bag of industry rejection and eager encouragement, unprecedented individual mandates, expansion of IRS (everyone's favorite agency) powers to enforce the mandates, ominous promises that this is all just a "first step"... and on and on.

The people do not want *this* health care reform, but they absolutely do want the right kind of reform.


The only "reform" needed is for the government to step aside.

But government never gives up control so this dog and pony show doesn't much matter.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: H.C. Reconcilliation Bill posted online

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:21 am

The bribe for Louisiana is apparently still included, heard a blurb about it last night on ABC news but I didn't catch the whole thing. There's some language that any state that has had every county in the state declared a disaster area in the last ten years some special benefit.... The only state that fits that description is Louisiana. The games never cease.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
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Re: H.C. Reconcilliation Bill posted online

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:51 am

Massive IRS powers and intrusion :

Congressional Budget Office expects the IRS will need roughly $10 billion over the next 10 years and nearly 17,000 new employees to meet its new responsibilities under health reform.


Is this the change you were looking for?
Black_And_Blue
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska 140

Re: H.C. Reconcilliation Bill posted online

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:13 pm

rberq wrote:Um, a savings is a savings and has nothing to do with redistribution. But since you raise the issue, there SHOULD be a redistribution from the wealthiest to the poorest. It's unconscionable the huge portion of wealth in this country controlled by a tiny percentage of the population. None of us coal burners here would suffer from that kind of redistribution, believe me.



Ummm....based on your statement, you are a definitely a socialist.

The costs of this program don't represent any savings at all. The CBO analysis doesn't factor in the impact to the states. The costs are simply pushed from the feds onto the states in an unfunded mandate of medicaid benefits to greater numbers of people. It is a dishonest representation by the Democrats.

The people paying for this will be state taxpayers of all types, and only the wealthy and businesses will be paying at the federal level. This bill creates several new taxes on wealth and business that will only serve to destroy what is left of the economic engine of the US.

You simply cannot increase benefits to 10% of the population without expending 10% more money, unless you want to reduce care levels. No matter how you slice it and dice it, this bill will cost Americans over $1 Trillion dollars per year in combined taxes, increased prices at all levels of the economy, and reduced benefits.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: H.C. Reconcilliation Bill posted online

PostBy: valley trash On: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:14 am

New Gov't jobs baby. Obama is supporting my poor ass as long as im broke. I was born a poor white boy, excuse me, a poor polish boy. It came to my attention that me being polish and trying to find a place to live was a bit demeaning. Walking down to the local grocer makes me feel a bit like Anne Frank, since im not for the Obama regime ideals. And i feel as though i cant purchase what i want since there might be a 'fat' tax on our freedom. How about a tax on our public representatives, who, in reality only work for us.
valley trash
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Romax 2000