Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

Cast your for vote FOR/AGAINST the HC Bill

Poll ended at Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:10 pm

YES - I want that ObamaCare vill to become law
6
12%
NO- I don't want the the ObamaCare bill to become law
44
88%
 
Total votes : 50

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:28 am

Damn,so that's what an avatar is--I just thought it was a pic to show something about yourself :) No need for you to apolagize for voting for this idiot :(
jeromemsn wrote:I didn't realize that an Avatar could have an effect on others here, strange. But hey I like to play too so I changed my own Avatar.

Health Care YES!

I'm a Republican that voted Democrat, you know why, because I can!

You still have a 401K? You didn't withdraw it to buy a house and cash in on 8 grand worth of tax write off? What the hells wrong with ya?

Man you guys really need to talk to a tax man or something sheesh.

oops sorry it took me so long to write and edit this I was firing up the water pipe, good *censored* man!
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:48 am

jpete wrote:
Everyone takes subsidies. If you take a deduction on your taxes, you just got a subsidy.


I'm against subsidies unless they make sense and very few of them do, they are basically used as mechanisms for paying back political debt in most cases. They breed corruption and rarely make economic sense. Apparently this one does make sense and was saving the government money as I'm reading it. It's costing the companies involved that are participating because the expense of coverage cost more than what they are receiving from the feds after the subsidies are deducted. The Dems are trying to pawn it off as "punishing the big bad companies" but that's not the case if the companies drop the coverage because the burden of this coverage will fall squarely on the shoulders of Medicare.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: Hambden Bob On: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:00 am

Fred,.........
Everyone knows that an "avatar" is a James Cameron flick. It was the sequel to "Titanic" The plot was simple. Jack and Rose actually were rescued by creatures from the "Blue Man Tour" and taken to an idyllic world where Anthracite Coal was burned for Heat and Domestic Hot Water. Jack and Rose got married by a Justice of the Peace. Rose had a lovely gown with a long train that hauled the Coal down the aisle. Her Attendents were Smurfettes as was the Maid-Of Honor,Cindy-Lou Smurf. Jack and Rose had a ton of kids,they lived in a shoe and Jack was fortunate to find he had a talent for designing and upgrading existing designed stokers. They all lived happily together. That's it,true story,no bull,about an avatar. Doctor,I'm ready for my medication
Hambden Bob
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman 1998 Magnum Stoker
Coal Size/Type: Rice-A-Roni !


Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:21 pm

Richard S. wrote:
jpete wrote:
Everyone takes subsidies. If you take a deduction on your taxes, you just got a subsidy.


I'm against subsidies unless they make sense and very few of them do, they are basically used as mechanisms for paying back political debt in most cases. They breed corruption and rarely make economic sense. Apparently this one does make sense and was saving the government money as I'm reading it. It's costing the companies involved that are participating because the expense of coverage cost more than what they are receiving from the feds after the subsidies are deducted. The Dems are trying to pawn it off as "punishing the big bad companies" but that's not the case if the companies drop the coverage because the burden of this coverage will fall squarely on the shoulders of Medicare.


I wouldn't really call them "political" paybacks but they certainly can be.

They are a way of "encouraging" certain behaviors. When you subsidize something, you get more of it. Ideally, you'd like the subsidy to generate more revenue than it cost.

But shortly, those things go out the window as people game the system and figure out the loop holes.

No question, things like writing off 125% of oil exploration costs are a give away to Big Oil.

But things like Federally supported college loans were there to allow people who normally couldn't go to college a chance. Better educated people mean higher income, means higher income taxes, etc. But as soon as the colleges figured out that the subsidy was the new starting point for tuition, they just jacked the price up. They knew everyone could at least get $xxxxx so it was easy to charge more.

That's where subsidies fall apart. Everyone counts on the money from the government, and when it goes away, they sh!t a kitten at the "extra" expense. If they government hadn't caused the problem by giving out the money to begin with, not one would have a stroke over losing it.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:37 pm

More regarding AT&T on others.

Henry Waxman and House Democrats announced yesterday that they will haul these companies in for an April 21 hearing because their judgment "appears to conflict with independent analyses, which show that the new law will expand coverage and bring down costs."


Key analysis :

The Democratic political calculation with ObamaCare is the proverbial boiling frog: Gradually introduce a health-care entitlement by hiding the true costs, hook the middle class on new subsidies until they become unrepealable, but try to delay the adverse consequences and major new tax hikes so voters don't make the connection between their policy and the economic wreckage. But their bill was such a shoddy, jerry-rigged piece of work that the damage is coming sooner than even some critics expected.


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 2445136066
Black_And_Blue
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska 140

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:17 pm

Fine. Let the insurance frog boil. Then it's "Medicare for All" time.

Perfect.
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:31 am

That's the plan. They get single payer like they always wanted because there will be nothing left.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: Black_And_Blue On: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:58 am

Attachments
ATTpageone.jpg
(108.92 KiB) Viewed 10 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]20149[/nepathumb]
ATTPagetwo.jpg
(100.84 KiB) Viewed 5 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]20150[/nepathumb]
Black_And_Blue
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska 140

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:23 am

LOL... they were required to account for the loss. Here's from the letter sent to Waxeman and Pelosi in December I posted before:

http://www.americanbenefitscouncil.org/ ... 121109.pdf

Further, this change would result in large earnings statement reductions due to U.S. GAAP income tax accounting rules, which would require employers to immediately account for the present value of this tax increase.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:55 am

Problem, Richard, is that corps have been "double-dipping" at the federal trough. They've gotten both a deduction for employee healthcare premiums and a credit too. Sort of like, um, institutionalized FRAUD.

And the reform bill takes the credit away.

So Congress is going to give them an opportunity to explain why they think that's unfair to taxpayers.

This looks like it will be the inaugural example of the use, by corporations, of their newly-endorsed unlimited 1st Amendment political free speech rights.
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:34 pm

stockingfull wrote:Problem, Richard, is that corps have been "double-dipping" at the federal trough. They've gotten both a deduction for employee healthcare premiums and a credit too. Sort of like, um, institutionalized FRAUD.


...and were saving the government money in the process and the people being covered were most likely getting a better plan that they would under medicare. What's the problem?

Are you blind man? As I stated before you can actually say the companies were subsidizing the federal government by picking up half the tab since these people were not on Medicare D. No they'll drop the coverage and the full cost wqill be born by the taxpayer. Happy that we punished big bad AT&T? errrr wait a minute... they'll actually see net increase to their profits long term by dropping coverage. :roll:
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:40 pm

Who said they're dropping coverage, Richard? Have you been reading too many corporate political ads? :lol:
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:35 pm

stockingfull wrote:Who said they're dropping coverage, Richard?


Follow along here now, usually following the links I provide will answer the question you might ask. Pelosi and Reid were warned in December this could happen in the letter I referenced twice already. It was signed by representatives of Boeing, Caterpillar, John Deere & Company, Exelon, Navistar, Public Service Enterprise Group Inc., Met Life and Verizon. They knew this was coming a long time ago. Here's recap of the relevant part of the letter, the underlines are mine to highlight the answer to your question:
The Medicare Prescription Drug Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003 added a new prescription drug benefit to the Medicare program for senior citizens. The Act also included a 28 percent subsidy for employers offering retiree prescription drug coverage to encourage them to “stay in the game” (as opposed to dropping coverage, which would have resulted in additional costs for the Medicare program). The strategy was effective, and the subsidy has enabled employers to offer prescription drug coverage to millions of retirees who would have otherwise elected to participate in Medicare Part D. The employer-sponsored plans have resulted in reduced costs to the government and to the retirees.

Health care reform proposals now before the House and Senate include changes to the RDS Program that would negatively impact both retirees and companies. The change would make the 28 percent subsidy taxable to employers, effectively reducing the value of the subsidy. As a result, we would anticipate significant reductions in employer-sponsored retiree prescription drug coverage. Some analysts of the proposal have characterized the non-taxable nature of the subsidy as “double-dipping” because companies receive a tax-deduction for the cost of the coverage and then receive a 28 percent tax-free subsidy. However, the cost of the coverage is considerably more than the combined value of the deduction and the 28 percent. Companies are absorbing more of the total cost than either the retirees or the government. Taxing the subsidy means that more companies will eliminate or reduce the coverage, and more retirees will shift to Medicare Part D, which will create more cost for both the government and the retirees. If more companies than predicted by the Government Accountability Office shift away from coverage, then the provision could result in a net revenue loss rather than the predicted slight revenue gain.



For starters they have less incentive to keep it and an easy way out. Why would these companies not reevaluate what they offer especially when they know the government is going to pick up those they drop? It doesn't take a genius to realize it would be easy for them to do since the people being covered are going to get some coverage whether the company or medicare is providing it. If enough of them drop coverage the government will see a net loss in revenue from this provision in the health care bill which was supposed to be a net gain and those receiving the coverage will probably see less benefits. We're not talking about pennies here but billions of dollars they could save by simply dropping them. This could also drastically lower the estimates to the expected medicare savings because not only have they lost the anticipated revenue from the taxes they will also be paying more. Understand now?

Whoever decided this was a good idea needs to get their head checked for rocks where their brain should be.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:24 am

Look, Richard, if the effect of making healthcare coverage as cheap for us to buy directly as it now is for employers to buy for us, why should we care? In fact, disconnecting insurance from the employer-employee relationship is a very, very good thing, because it allows people freely to change jobs without jeopardizing their coverage. (The only reason it ever was an employee perk was to make it appear cheaper during WWII price controls. And that was plainly phony accounting, even then.)

And, to the extent that corporations have been getting double tax breaks (one deduction, one credit) for the same expenses, that's just cheating. Where's the outrage? You guys wouldn't put up with that for a second if it was so much as a few thousand bucks going to ACORN; why should big corps be allowed to commit fraud on a much bigger scale?

Stay tuned to the Congressional hearings.
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Cast your vote FOR/AGAINST the HC bill

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:14 am

stockingfull wrote: Where's the outrage?


Why should I be outraged at a policy that is saving the US taxpayer billions and presumably providing better coverage to the retirees of these companies? :?
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite