America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:52 am

Jon, the only thing you have is gas.

Those nations you mention are likely NOT as good as you say they are as in the case of Cuba, the UK and Canada OR, they are on the verge of economic collapse, like Greece and Portugal, OR they rely on the capitalism of another nations system to subsidize their socialist systems, like Canada, China, Cuba and Venezuela.

Prove your assertions. I proved mine. Read the damn UN survey and Wiki article or I will have to assume you just want the power like an obtuse Bolshevik.
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:37 am

stockingfull wrote:Ya won't be giving up much in healthcare. We're 37th, they're 39th.

If you want a win-win, you might consider Colombia (#22), or Portugal (#12), Spain (#7) or the French Riviera (#1). All universal systems.


Portugal and Spain or the next two dominoes to fall after Greece.

I wonder, do their better health out comes have anything to do with their diet? Maybe not putting poison and processed corn into their systems?

Nah...it's gotta be that altruistic government. Yeah...that's it....
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:56 am

Christ, Jeff, for a libertarian, you sure sound like a diet Nazi. ;)

What would "you, the libertarian" say when "you, the organic food fanatic" started pulling cheap stuff off the shelves to get us on the right track?

I'm not unsympathetic to the general idea that we almost surely are made less healthy by many foods on the market today, but it's gotta create left-side-right-side tension for a devoted anarchist like you. :D

Lessee, you don't like "gubmint healthcare" but greatly expanded "gubmint food restrictions" are OK, is that it?
stockingfull
 
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:18 am

I don't recall saying we should "do something" about it. The simple fact of the matter is Americans eat crap food which results in poorer health.

It's up to the person to decide whether they want to eat it or not. In your case, I'd recommend five servings a day.

By the same token, I don't want to punish the rest of society with leftish faux altruism and force everyone else to pay for my bad habits.
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:33 am

Why not tax the "bad stuff" and put it into healthcare, Jeff? Too common-sense for you?
stockingfull
 
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: spc On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:09 pm

Those who want Gov. to run their lives, here is the plan, if you want Gov. to pay your heath care you eat what the Gov. tells you to eat, like a meals on wheels DIET program, delivered by the USPS of course , & a mandatory exercise program 5 days a week 2 hours a day at the local Y, transportation provided by local school buses. Absolutely no smoking, gambling, including lotto, & if you don’t do as the Gov. says you are disciplined like a teenager would be, start taking away cell phones, video games, TV, you get the idea.

And for the rest of us, pizza & ice cream with a large coke. :D
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:17 pm

stockingfull wrote:Why not tax the "bad stuff" and put it into healthcare, Jeff? Too common-sense for you?

Nope. Too socialist for me. Leave it to you to come up with it though.

The problem is that government is responsible for the crappy food and now you want to tax us to pay for health problems caused by crappy food.

That's genius. :roll:

High fructose corn syrup, despite recent advertising, is absolute crap. We use more of it than any country on the planet. Want to know why? Because we put a protectionist tarriff on cane sugar. That's how Hawai'i became a state. Because wealthy plantation owners didn't want to pay the tax anymore. We over threw a sovreign nation to avoid the tax on sugar and we still have the tax today.

And all those countries that give "free" health care don't allow genetically modified foods in their country but the FDA can't find anything wrong with them.

Check out "Food, Inc." And "The World According to Monsanto" if you want top see what you are eating.

It's not that I'm morally opposed to any of it, but don't come here trying to say the reason other countries have better health out comes because they have government provided healthcare. There are REASONS why. The mere fact that government pays the bills vs a private insurer doesn't make people healthier. The unthinking left may buy it but I don't.
jpete
 
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:55 pm

Jeff, I'm more in agreement with your "food-vigilante-ism" than I am with your opp to HCR.

Look, why should those of us smart enough to, for example, not smoke have to pay the extraordinary costs of all of the respiratory and cardiac consequences of smoking?

To a great degree, the cause and effect between what we do and health outcomes ain't rocket science. Why not connect the obvious dots and place the costs on the substances which we know cause the harm? That's not a "death panel," that's risk allocation, which is exactly what insurers now do when they take your life insurance application. Smoker? You pay a higher rate. That's as it should be.

Why not drop the other shoe and tax the things that clearly cause disease?
stockingfull
 
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:24 pm

All engineering leads to unintended consequences.

This is true whether you are engineering a coal boiler, foodstuffs, or health care delivery.

The engineer's goal is to solve a problem given constraints. In today's world they consider their collateral damage more than they did in the past but their analyzes have a limited view.

No one expected the consumerism that developed in health care, as a result of health insurance becoming an employer paid benefit, to balloon into such an economic bubble filled with moral hazard.

No one expected colonial sugar production to cause rampant slavery and imperialism and now, nutritional issues.

Before we set off to solve our minor problems, we need to consider the consequences of the solutions.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:45 pm

stockingfull wrote:Jeff, I'm more in agreement with your "food-vigilante-ism" than I am with your opp to HCR.

Look, why should those of us smart enough to, for example, not smoke have to pay the extraordinary costs of all of the respiratory and cardiac consequences of smoking?

To a great degree, the cause and effect between what we do and health outcomes ain't rocket science. Why not connect the obvious dots and place the costs on the substances which we know cause the harm? That's not a "death panel," that's risk allocation, which is exactly what insurers now do when they take your life insurance application. Smoker? You pay a higher rate. That's as it should be.

Why not drop the other shoe and tax the things that clearly cause disease?

Why not left free people make their own choices and life and die by them?

You're the one that wants everyone to pay for everyone elses mistakes.

Punative taxes don't work. A quarter of Greece's economy is black market. Look where your plan leads. Screw it, tax everything 100%, see how much revenue you lose.
jpete
 
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: Duengeon master On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:47 pm

Wood'nCoal wrote:
stockingfull wrote:Whatever you think of Fidel and Co, you gotta give 'em props for the job they've done on healthcare, especially considering the embargo they've been operating under for all this time.


Yep, makes me want to move there, I hear it's lovely this time of year.
Some of those Cuban chicks are pretty cute. I also heard that Fidel just authorized everyone gets a brand new rice cooker!!! Too bad not everyone has electricity. Also the main hospital that everyone gets to see (ask Maxine Waters) Unless you are not a high level govt. official or a tourist, You can't get in. All the other hospitals or clinics are very equal, they don't even have a band aid to give out. Now that is about as equal as you can get. :D :lol: 8-)
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:18 pm

Trouble is, even with way less than everybody covered, we're about 50% more expensive (as % of GDP) than the next most expensive country on the Wiki list Mike cited. And nearly twice as expensive as most.

For less than full coverage, that's just nuts.
stockingfull
 
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: tvb On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:39 pm

jpete wrote:
High fructose corn syrup, despite recent advertising, is absolute crap. We use more of it than any country on the planet. Want to know why? Because we put a protectionist tarriff on cane sugar. That's how Hawai'i became a state. Because wealthy plantation owners didn't want to pay the tax anymore. We over threw a sovreign nation to avoid the tax on sugar and we still have the tax today.

And all those countries that give "free" health care don't allow genetically modified foods in their country but the FDA can't find anything wrong with them.

Check out "Food, Inc." And "The World According to Monsanto" if you want top see what you are eating.


Jeff, you might want to read some of Michael Pollard's books, particularly "The Ominivore's Dilemma".
tvb
 
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: jeromemsn On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:15 pm

Ahhhhh reference material........inputtttttttttttttttttt. More please.
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Re: America Overwhelmingly voted for Soicalism"

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:01 pm

tvb wrote:
jpete wrote:
High fructose corn syrup, despite recent advertising, is absolute crap. We use more of it than any country on the planet. Want to know why? Because we put a protectionist tarriff on cane sugar. That's how Hawai'i became a state. Because wealthy plantation owners didn't want to pay the tax anymore. We over threw a sovreign nation to avoid the tax on sugar and we still have the tax today.

And all those countries that give "free" health care don't allow genetically modified foods in their country but the FDA can't find anything wrong with them.

Check out "Food, Inc." And "The World According to Monsanto" if you want top see what you are eating.


Jeff, you might want to read some of Michael Pollard's books, particularly "The Ominivore's Dilemma".


Got it. My wife is half a vegetarian after that book. :D

If it wasn't for the fact that grass fed, dry aged beef tastes soooooooo good. :D
jpete
 
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