another obamacare surprise

Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:44 pm

rberq wrote:
lowfog01 wrote: This is scary because it's unconstitutional and infringes our our personal liberties.

Every law infringes on somebody's personal liberties. Having to put real mufflers on motorcycles infringes on owners' liberties. The fact that I can't put rock salt in my shotgun to chastise those without mufflers, infringes on my liberties. And stop with the "unconstitutional" -- it ain't unconstitutional until the Supreme Court says so.

lowfog01 wrote:Take smoking for example, since when has a citizen not been allowed to enjoy a legally available product any where they chose
Very poor example. If you put your face six inches from someone else's, and exhale your smoke, I think even you would agree that is wrong. But if you smoke in in six by six elevator in a hospital for cystic fibrosis patients, as long as you don't blow directly into anyone's face, is that OK? ("anywhere they chose", you said.) And speaking of laws that restrict liberties, it's damned inconvenient that you Virginia tobacco growers can't own slaves any longer.


Who has the power to enslave anyone? Only governments.

And if a hospital makes a rule that restricts smoking, that's not infringing on your liberty. Only governments can do that.

People don't seem to understand the difference between private companies, individuals, and governments.
jpete
 
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: tvb On: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:57 pm

rberq wrote: And speaking of laws that restrict liberties, it's damned inconvenient that you Virginia tobacco growers can't own slaves any longer.


But it's a good thing to celebrate so the Republican Gov there in Virginia saw fit to declare April as Confederate History Month with a proclamation that celebrates an act of treason. Funny, I don't ever recall acts of treason and sedition to be permitted by the constitution.

http://www.governor.virginia.gov/OurCom ... yMonth.cfm

He conveniently left out the part where they celebrate the ownership of humans as slaves. He also forgot to include the name of the general that whipped their sorry asses leading to the surrender by Robert E Lee there in Appomattox:

WHEREAS, April is the month in which the people of Virginia joined the Confederate States of America in a four year war between the states for independence that concluded at Appomattox Courthouse;


He also forgot to mention that the CSA was losing soldiers quicker to desertion than evacuees rushing out of a burning building.
tvb
 
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:41 pm

Boy when you guys decide to let your ignorance show you go all out. Have you ever done any actual research as the causes and outcome of the Civil War or do you blindly accept what you have been told by those who wrote the history, i.e. the winners.

No matter, this is yet another attempt to change the direction of the discussion because you can't defend your position. The subject under discussion is the attempt by the Obama administration to encroach on our liberties. The chipping away at the Constitution bit by bit. It's not whether the Confederate states were wrong to attempt to leave the Union. Nor is it about whether or not Virgina is inconvenienced by their inability to hold slaves today. That statement leaves me shaking my head.

The current administration through the health care law continues to overreach and chip away at the Constitution. It's all about control and power. If that's not so why destroy a health care system that 80% of the population was happy with. Why not change those few items that needed to be changed and move on. No, with the health care law the government now controls the most personal aspects of your life and takes away your power and control to make your own decisions. The full extent of the loss of liberties won't be known until it's almost too late but belief me,to paraphrase Pelosi, now that it's passed we will find out what's in the law and just how screwed we are. Answer me this, if this bill was such a good bill and was for getting everyone health insurance why did the political leadership have to bribe and arm twist to get it passed? They have clear majorities in both houses of the Congress; they should have been able to pass this quite easily. What they did was illegal and unconstitutional. If it had been you or I we'd be in jail.

I was going to quote James Madison on the cost of freedom but this link came up.

http://freedomkeys.com/vigil.htm

Check it out and know it is true. Then answer the question. Are you a freeman or a subject? I chose to be free. Lisa
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:52 pm

tvb wrote:
rberq wrote: And speaking of laws that restrict liberties, it's damned inconvenient that you Virginia tobacco growers can't own slaves any longer.


But it's a good thing to celebrate so the Republican Gov there in Virginia saw fit to declare April as Confederate History Month with a proclamation that celebrates an act of treason. Funny, I don't ever recall acts of treason and sedition to be permitted by the constitution.

http://www.governor.virginia.gov/OurCom ... yMonth.cfm

He conveniently left out the part where they celebrate the ownership of humans as slaves. He also forgot to include the name of the general that whipped their sorry asses leading to the surrender by Robert E Lee there in Appomattox:

WHEREAS, April is the month in which the people of Virginia joined the Confederate States of America in a four year war between the states for independence that concluded at Appomattox Courthouse;


He also forgot to mention that the CSA was losing soldiers quicker to desertion than evacuees rushing out of a burning building.


This is the dumbest thing I think I've ever seen you say. You don't have the faintest idea what the "Civil War" was about or what the concept of freedom is. :(
jpete
 
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: tvb On: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:59 pm

Why don't you enlighten me Jeff. And then I'll show you the secessionist papers where they make it clear it's about slavery.
tvb
 
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: tvb On: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:40 pm

Boy when you guys decide to let your ignorance show you go all out. Have you ever done any actual research as the causes and outcome of the Civil War or do you blindly accept what you have been told by those who wrote the history, i.e. the winners.


He didn't call it Civil War History month. He called in Confederate History Month. Big difference, but he's your governor so you can deal with the derision and laughter from everyone else. He's celebrating an act of treason.

No matter, this is yet another attempt to change the direction of the discussion because you can't defend your position. The subject under discussion is the attempt by the Obama administration to encroach on our liberties. The chipping away at the Constitution bit by bit. It's not whether the Confederate states were wrong to attempt to leave the Union. Nor is it about whether or not Virgina is inconvenienced by their inability to hold slaves today. That statement leaves me shaking my head.


When you start a discussion based upon outright lies, you can't really expect it to stay on topic. There's only so many times those living in a reality-based world are willing to point out that you appear to be wearing a hat made of tin-foil. Eventually, they are going to let you go out in public to make a fool of yourself.

By the way, did you see that the Very Conservative Senator from Oklahoma named Tom Coburn has told his constituents at a town hall meeting to stop paying so much attention to Fox News because they have a habit of not being truthful? Here, you can hear it for yourself: http://www.capitolnewsconnection.org/?q=node/14443 He also defended Nancy Pelosi.

The Moonie Times lies too, Lisa, and you've been played like a bad song once again by them.
tvb
 
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:20 am

From the Virginia Governor's declaration:

WHEREAS, all Virginians can appreciate the fact that when ultimately overwhelmed by the insurmountable numbers and resources of the Union Army, the surviving, imprisoned and injured Confederate soldiers gave their word and allegiance to the United States of America, and returned to their homes and families to rebuild their communities in peace, following the instruction of General Robert E. Lee of Virginia, who wrote that, “...all should unite in honest efforts to obliterate the effects of war and to restore the blessings of peace."; and

WHEREAS, this defining chapter in Virginia’s history should not be forgotten, but instead should be studied, understood and remembered by all Virginians, both in the context of the time in which it took place, but also in the context of the time in which we live, and this study and remembrance takes on particular importance as the Commonwealth prepares to welcome the nation and the world to visit Virginia for the Sesquicentennial Anniversary of the Civil War, a four-year period in which the exploration of our history can benefit all;


Virginia was a confederate state during the civil war. Nobody wants to be on the "losing" side. The governor's words are conciliatory toward the ancestors of many Virginians. He attempted to honor them for doing the right thing in the aftermath of the war. In other words, for recognizing their error and doing what they could to re-form a peaceful union. It was a big sea change for nearly half this nation. It is easy to see the moral repugnance of slavery now, but then it was a despicable yet ingrained institution in the culture of the south and, as a matter of law, the South had an arguable case.

Why are we arguing this issue now? Surely not because it compares to health care reform! Slavery was a prime deprivation of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I suppose if impairing the opportunity to pursuit happiness, based on our unequal personal talents, were not an issue (aka, enslavement of the rich and middle class) then providing Obamacare wouldn't be an issue in this nation. But that would require......SOCIALISM, wouldn't it? And, after all, the US was founded as a free trading republic, providing opportunities to improve our own personal outcomes, not guaranteeing those outcomes, wasn't it?

I agree that the Governor should have called it Civil War History Month so as not to imply that the Confederates were in the right. But nonetheless, their actions were honorable after the war and the Governor's intent is to educate in the best light possible for Virginia's citizenry during the celebration of the Civil War anniversary event.
Last edited by mikeandgerry on Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:34 am

tvb wrote:By the way, did you see that the Very Conservative Senator from Oklahoma named Tom Coburn has told his constituents at a town hall meeting to stop paying so much attention to Fox News because they have a habit of not being truthful? Here, you can hear it for yourself: http://www.capitolnewsconnection.org/?q=node/14443 He also defended Nancy Pelosi.


For starters, the audio links are missing from your "fly by night" "news" organization. How much credibility can an organization have when it uses a non sequitur in its mission statement?

* We believe the maxim that “all politics is local." News and information made locally relevant has a meaningful impact on citizens’ lives and encourages informed, active and effective civic participation, and raises the level of discourse and debate.
* Good journalism knows no preconceptions, has no biases. It seeks truth, meaning, context, transparency and accountability.
* We value integrity, honesty, responsibility and accountability.
* We believe in innovation of thought, action and outcome


Try googling the exact words "innovation of outcome". You will get four hits (one is Chinese--I give them a pass).

Fox has grown in popularity because the soon-to-be-"legacy media" (check their ratings) have been unapologetic political manipulators for well over twenty years.

Tom Coburn was merely being a gentleman about Pelosi and in fact, it was YOU who took extreme liberty in saying that Coburn told the town hall people to stop paying so much attention to FOX "because they have a habit of not being truthful". Coburn described the news channel as "inaccurate and biased" with regard to their characterization of Pelosi. The words in bold are YOUR words. They are not anywhere in your link. Perhaps it was your message that was a deceptive presentation lacking in fact.

Personally, I would like to see where in the news Fox was biased or inaccurate. I think Coburn was really describing the Fox talk show commentators who make no secrecy of their biases.

It is YOU who may have the bad habit of not being truthful through YOUR inaccuracies as illustrated above.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:52 am

Lisa wrote:

"Boy when you guys decide to let your ignorance show you go all out. Have you ever done any actual research as the causes and outcome of the Civil War or do you blindly accept what you have been told by those who wrote the history, i.e. the winners...."

TVB wrote:

"When you start a discussion based upon outright lies, you can't really expect it to stay on topic. There's only so many times those living in a reality-based world are willing to point out that you appear to be wearing a hat made of tin-foil. Eventually, they are going to let you go out in public to make a fool of yourself."

Oh, TVB how sad... I can expect and to and do remain on topic because I'm an intelligent, independent woman who can defend her position without grasping at straws. You have never shown the same ability. Your problem is that you have no interest in discerning the truth and therefore remain the pawn of who ever is selling the snake oil. In this case, that's the current administration. I'm sorry I can't help you with that regard, however, I can and will do everything within my capabilities to discredit your argument and help others see the dangers of this administration. There's not much else to say about it - you've shown you want to remain ignorant and that's a sad thing to say about anyone but when history shines it's light on the arguments of this day, I know I will have stood with the right (as in correct.) You will not be able to say the same thing and that day is coming sooner then your think.

Keep an eye on your pay stub, the tax increases and health insurance premium increase will be happening soon, real soon, not to mention double digit inflation. That's how we will know who is right and who is wrong in this debate.

Have a great day, I don't know about where you are but the weather is great here although already hot at 90*. Lisa
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: RAYJAY On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:10 am

Ok .... why is every one upset about the government tracking your hip or knee replacement or you pacemaker ?????
Blog sites have been buzzing about the National Medical Device Registry, a new office in the U.S. Food and Drug Administration that was created in the Obamacare reconciliation package.




the facts on what the article was about ....



http://www.brefnet.org/news/article/13
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
RAYJAY
 
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: Yanche On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:14 am

mikeandgerry wrote:
Yanche wrote:Just to add some fuel to the fire:

“OBAMACARE” – SEPARATING FACTS FROM MYTHS

What does health care reform include … REALLY?


For more answers, you can visit http://www.whitehouse.gov/healthreform



If you really want answers, read the law, not the White House sales pitch. Really, Yanche, I am surprised at you.


lowfog01 wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:
Yanche wrote:Just to add some fuel to the fire:

“OBAMACARE” – SEPARATING FACTS FROM MYTHS

What does health care reform include … REALLY?


For more answers, you can visit http://www.whitehouse.gov/healthreform



If you really want answers, read the law, not the White House sales pitch. Really, Yanche, I am surprised at you.


Jeez Yanche, I'm sorry to hear that you have drunk the kool-aid, too. Lisa


Well, I've achieved my stated objective, "I've stirred the pot" and in the process helped push this site's Google ratings even higher. Don't you all realize the objective of all these off-coal topics true purpose are only to boost ratings and increase Richard's Goggle ad income. :-) Hey, it's no more a preposterous proposition than others have suggested. May the political debate continue ...
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: tvb On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:27 am

RAYJAY wrote:Ok .... why is every one upset about the government tracking your hip or knee replacement or you pacemaker ?????
Blog sites have been buzzing about the National Medical Device Registry, a new office in the U.S. Food and Drug Administration that was created in the Obamacare reconciliation package.




the facts on what the article was about ....



http://www.brefnet.org/news/article/13
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


That article is from 2006. As I recall, Prince George was president in 2006. A new google search reveals no legitimate references to a medical device registry beside the Moonie Times and a couple of obscure blogs.

I recently had some shoulder surgery to remove some medical hardware from my shoulder. It was put in there in 1999 and needed to be removed. Because I had the serial number of the device, provided to me by the physician who did the original surgery, my current doctor was able to learn more about the device before he went digging on what would have been a treasure hunt. Without that device being in a "registry", that wouldn't have been able to happen.
tvb
 
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:42 am

tvb wrote:Why don't you enlighten me Jeff. And then I'll show you the secessionist papers where they make it clear it's about slavery.

I'm not foolish enough to think you can be convinced the war was about anything but slavery. You will completely discount any of the economic issues surrounding the war.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: tvb On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:45 am

mikeandgerry wrote:
tvb wrote:By the way, did you see that the Very Conservative Senator from Oklahoma named Tom Coburn has told his constituents at a town hall meeting to stop paying so much attention to Fox News because they have a habit of not being truthful? Here, you can hear it for yourself: http://www.capitolnewsconnection.org/?q=node/14443 He also defended Nancy Pelosi.


For starters, the audio links are missing from your "fly by night" "news" organization. How much credibility can an organization have when it uses a non sequitur in its mission statement?

* We believe the maxim that “all politics is local." News and information made locally relevant has a meaningful impact on citizens’ lives and encourages informed, active and effective civic participation, and raises the level of discourse and debate.
* Good journalism knows no preconceptions, has no biases. It seeks truth, meaning, context, transparency and accountability.
* We value integrity, honesty, responsibility and accountability.
* We believe in innovation of thought, action and outcome


Try googling the exact words "innovation of outcome". You will get four hits (one is Chinese--I give them a pass).

Fox has grown in popularity because the soon-to-be-"legacy media" (check their ratings) have been unapologetic political manipulators for well over twenty years.

Tom Coburn was merely being a gentleman about Pelosi and in fact, it was YOU who took extreme liberty in saying that Coburn told the town hall people to stop paying so much attention to FOX "because they have a habit of not being truthful". Coburn described the news channel as "inaccurate and biased" with regard to their characterization of Pelosi. The words in bold are YOUR words. They are not anywhere in your link. Perhaps it was your message that was a deceptive presentation lacking in fact.

Personally, I would like to see where in the news Fox was biased or inaccurate. I think Coburn was really describing the Fox talk show commentators who make no secrecy of their biases.

It is YOU who may have the bad habit of not being truthful through YOUR inaccuracies as illustrated above.


Your second favorite newspaper (behind the Moonie Times), the Wall Street Street apparently heard the same thing I did. By Susan Davis

At a town hall meeting, Sen. Tom Coburn criticized Fox News, saying it peddled false information about the health care bill, and he chastised constituents who had nasty things to say about House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/04/0 ... rn-off-tv/

And the audio is there on my original link, you just need to open your eyes and read a little bit instead of blindly jumping to conclusions. While you are finding that audio (linked to very clearly in the middle of the page), you may want to take a moment more to learn about the news organization you call fly-by-night. It's funded by the CPB and has many different contributing partners. No doubt you will try to claim that the CPB is partisan on the other side, but if you do, it is just further proof that you really don't know what you are talking about.
tvb
 
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:57 pm

The audio tracks were not available early this morning, returning "FNF". I listened to the three tracks today. There is nothing there that could enable you to make the statement that you made earlier:

By the way, did you see that the Very Conservative Senator from Oklahoma named Tom Coburn has told his constituents at a town hall meeting to stop paying so much attention to Fox News because they have a habit of not being truthful? Here, you can hear it for yourself: http://www.capitolnewsconnection.org/?q=node/14443 He also defended Nancy Pelosi.


Tom Coburn told the truth as he sees it. He called Nancy Pelosi nice. He called Fox biased, not lacking in truth. He told people to get their news from two sources. Tom Coburn is a gentleman and a leader.

The evidence doesn't support your assertion. What does your statement make you?
mikeandgerry
 
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