another obamacare surprise

Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:06 pm

tvb wrote: It's funded by the CPB and has many different contributing partners. No doubt you will try to claim that the CPB is partisan on the other side, but if you do, it is just further proof that you really don't know what you are talking about.


I don't have to claim anything. Their slip up in crafting their mission statement exposes their intent.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: rberq On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:28 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:Tom Coburn told the truth as he sees it. He called Nancy Pelosi nice. He called Fox biased ... Tom Coburn is a gentleman and a leader.

Told the truth? AND said Fox is biased? Yes, he IS a gentleman. Are there any more like him on that side of the aisle?
Thank goodness he's white. The brave and high-principled defenders of liberty can spit on him, but won't be able to call him a n*gg*r.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: tvb On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:38 pm

jpete wrote:
tvb wrote:Why don't you enlighten me Jeff. And then I'll show you the secessionist papers where they make it clear it's about slavery.

I'm not foolish enough to think you can be convinced the war was about anything but slavery. You will completely discount any of the economic issues surrounding the war.


The governor of Virginia, after realizing he had totally alienated any black vote and any vote from reasonable people of his commonwealth, apparently agrees with me that it was all about slavery:
"The proclamation issued by this Office designating April as Confederate History Month contained a major omission. The failure to include any reference to slavery was a mistake, and for that I apologize to any fellow Virginian who has been offended or disappointed. The abomination of slavery divided our nation, deprived people of their God-given inalienable rights, and led to the Civil War. Slavery was an evil, vicious and inhumane practice which degraded human beings to property, and it has left a stain on the soul of this state and nation. In 2007, the Virginia General Assembly approved a formal statement of "profound regret" for the Commonwealth's history of slavery, which was the right thing to do.


Emphasis mine.

You can read his entire mea culpa here: http://www.governor.virginia.gov/news/v ... cfm?id=111
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:36 pm

tvb wrote:
jpete wrote:
tvb wrote:Why don't you enlighten me Jeff. And then I'll show you the secessionist papers where they make it clear it's about slavery.

I'm not foolish enough to think you can be convinced the war was about anything but slavery. You will completely discount any of the economic issues surrounding the war.


The governor of Virginia, after realizing he had totally alienated any black vote and any vote from reasonable people of his commonwealth, apparently agrees with me that it was all about slavery:
"The proclamation issued by this Office designating April as Confederate History Month contained a major omission. The failure to include any reference to slavery was a mistake, and for that I apologize to any fellow Virginian who has been offended or disappointed. The abomination of slavery divided our nation, deprived people of their God-given inalienable rights, and led to the Civil War. Slavery was an evil, vicious and inhumane practice which degraded human beings to property, and it has left a stain on the soul of this state and nation. In 2007, the Virginia General Assembly approved a formal statement of "profound regret" for the Commonwealth's history of slavery, which was the right thing to do.


Emphasis mine.

You can read his entire mea culpa here: http://www.governor.virginia.gov/news/v ... cfm?id=111


So you are using the guy you derided as proof of your assertion? :?

The simple, short answer MIGHT be "slavery", but it was more about states rights.

Why can't a group of people that VOLUNTARILY join an organization VOLUNTARILY leave that organization?

Why should the northern industrial states impose a punitive tax on southern states for engaging in free trade?

As always, people get mad when you steal from them. The south got tired of it and seceded. I think they had every right to do so.

Slavery would have resolved itself one way or the other. If Lincoln was so concerned about slaves, he could have bought them all and freed them for less than the cost of prosecuting the war.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: rberq On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:25 pm

jpete wrote:...[the Civil War] was more about states rights. Why can't a group of people that VOLUNTARILY join an organization VOLUNTARILY leave that organization? The south ... seceded. I think they had every right to do so.

Jeff, I'm going to mark this date on my calendar! For once I agree with you! If I want to secede with my six acres, it's hard to see how it would work. I would still have to travel the public roads, shop in cities where there is police protection, and so on, and how would I arrange to pay my share of those services? But now and then residents of an island in the ocean will say they want to secede. Why not let them? On what authority does a state or the federal government hold on to them? Only by the authority of Might Makes Right. Of course there would have to be an understanding that the island is now truly a foreign entity, the citizens have no right to free travel to the mainland, no expectation of military protection, and so on and so on.

jpete wrote:If Lincoln was so concerned about slaves, he could have bought them all and freed them for less than the cost of prosecuting the war.

Very true. Much the same could be said for several modern wars, including Viet Nam and the second Gulf war. In Iraq (second time) it seems we could have bought off the politicians way cheaper, in money and lives, than it cost to bomb the country back to the stone age and then pay to rebuild it.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:02 pm

rberq wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:Tom Coburn told the truth as he sees it. He called Nancy Pelosi nice. He called Fox biased ... Tom Coburn is a gentleman and a leader.

Told the truth? AND said Fox is biased? Yes, he IS a gentleman. Are there any more like him on that side of the aisle?
Thank goodness he's white. The brave and high-principled defenders of liberty can spit on him, but won't be able to call him a n*gg*r.


So, why are you ranting and race baiting?
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:15 pm

tvb wrote:The governor of Virginia, after realizing he had totally alienated any black vote and any vote from reasonable people of his commonwealth, apparently agrees with me that it was all about slavery.


The civil war was triggered by both the economics and the immorality of slavery, among other events. But, to be sure, Lincoln made it clear that despite his adherence to the Republican plank against slavery, his primary role was to preserve the union. The north assailed the immorality of slavery while the south defended the economic institution of slavery, both through the assertion of state's rights.

The war started as the result of the northern states asserting their moral inclinations by ignoring their duty to honor slave states in matters of chattel and rendition (i.e. ignoring The Fugitive Slave Act). While the moral superiority of the north on slavery would have eventually won out due to its historical political trajectory, federal laws were not yet in place to support the northern state's actions against the south thus the north were indeed aggressors.

In my opinion, a failure to amend the Constitution to end slavery caused the war. The south didn't have the votes to hold on to slavery. I believe it was a failure of congressional leadership. In the absence of such an amendment the south was rightfully exercising its state rights and the northern states, doing the same, passed anti-slavery laws. The problem was that the north didn't honor rendition. It was an issue of interstate commerce in one sense and property rights in another to the south. However, no moral argument lacking the force of law would change the existing legal rights of the South to slave ownership, despite Federal laws stopping the slave trade years earlier.

The aggression did belong to the north. Moral superiority and might were on the side of the north. The north, having 1% blacks in the population compared to 33% of the south's population, didn't fear the economic and social repercussions of abolition. The south's economic wealth was heavily based on slavery. Cotton was king only because of slavery. The cotton industry was a unique and lucrative franchise with a huge cash customer in Great Britain's fabric mills. Abolition certainly would be an economic blow to the deep south and one that wouldn't be taken lightly. No one likes their cash cow purloined when it is protected by law. Armed conflict was imminent given such stakes. That the federal government didn't better manage the dissolution of the once legal institution of slavery was an epic failure of our republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_on_slavery
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civ ... il_war.htm
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:20 am

And yet here we are all these decades later & many even if not in any way decendants of slaves freely choose to remain slaves by living off of Gov. welfare rather than going out in the world as a free man & earning their keep.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:35 am

The economic reality is that the industrial north and it's over representation in Congress put a punitive tax on imported industrial equipment. If a southern plantation owner imported anything that was also made in the north, he was whacked with a huge tax.

Rhode Island was the birthplace of the American Industrial Revolution. The cotton gin allowed all the mills here and in Massachusetts to process cotton at an unbelievable rate.

So the northern mills were demanding more cotton, and if the south attempted to buy equipment to increase production, they were punished. It was cheaper and easier just to buy more slaves. And that suited guys like John Brown just fine. His slave trading money built a university not far from where I am right now.

Then you have the north telling the south, we want more cotton, but you can't use slaves, and if you try to buy any industrial equipment, you are going to buy it from us or pay double what it's worth.

Just one more example of the corporatist government putting a gun to the head of the people and extracting every last dollar.

So the south did the only peaceful thing they could do, the removed themselves from the deal. I still don't understand the philosophy that you can't voluntarily leave an organization which you voluntarily joined.

The US was really supposed to operate like the EU does now. A group of member states operating under a common umbrella. I wonder if Greece decided to leave the EU today, would France send in the troops to prevent it? Interesting question.....
Last edited by jpete on Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:28 pm

jpete wrote:
Just one more example of the corporatist government [putting] a gun to the head of the people and extracting every last dollar.



Yes, and as always, doing so by preying on the emotions and fears of the people.

jpete wrote:The US was really supposed to operate like the EU does now. A group of member states operating under a common umbrella. I wonder if Greece decided to leave the EU today, would France send in the troops to prevent it? Interesting question.....


LOL, I think they would give them the bum's rush out the door. They don't call the slacker nations P.I.G.S. for nothing!
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:44 pm

jpete wrote:The economic reality is that the industrial north and it's over representation in Congress put a punative tax on imported industrial equipment. If a southern plantation owner imported anything that was also made in the north, he was whacked with a huge tax.


Though I agree with the thrust of your statements I would like to clarify a bit.

The US government at the time was supported with the revenue from tariffs. At one time the New England states threatened to secede if tariffs were lowered which protected their manufactures from European competition.

The major market for southern cotton was Europe. It was necessary for the southern states to take the bulk of payment for their cotton in the form of manufactured goods. This resulted in the South paying the lions share of taxes in the form of tariffs for the support of the US Government. This was an untenable situation.

If it had not been for the fact of slavery producing southern prosperity the South clearly had the moral high ground. The South had a tiger by the tail and did not know how to let go.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:35 pm

You're right. It went both ways.

The north was getting cut out of the deal because the south was selling directly to Europe.

That left a lot of under utilized mills all over New England. Nothing a business owner hates more than to have idle machines.

I think we have established the economic reasons for the war more than the slavery issues. Rhode Island certainly didn't have a problem with it. Even after it was made illegal here, it still went on.

We were one point in the Triangle Trade. There used to be rum distilleries all over here. We made ships to trade slaves. There are more Narragansett Indians in the Caribbean than in Rhode Island (and Providence Plantations). They didn't make good slaves. They kept escaping. Seems like they knew the land like the back of their hand. I guess living here for a few millennia will do that to you.

So we shipped them down to work on the sugar cane plantations in exchange for Africans and molasses.

The money was just too big an issue. The popular mythology that the north wore the white hats and the south wore the black hats is, like most of history, tripe. History is written by the winners, and the north won so they get to tell the lies.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:41 pm

So, TVB....you catching all this?

Don't you want to talk about the cause of the civil war anymore?
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:31 am

Thanks for posting this. The insurance companies in CA are having the same problems "justifying" their rate increases, too. It's just amazing how the government thinks they can use the "because we say so" justification in demanding private enterprises conform to their wishes. Lisa
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