another obamacare surprise

another obamacare surprise

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:45 am

Good Morning everyone,

I found this morning while I was surfing the internet.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... veillance/

I was wondering if anyone else had seen or read about it in the media they follow. Personally, I find it disturbing. For the Obama administration to say they are not required to get a search warrant to tap into your cell phone to see where you are is frightening and clearly unconstitutional. To extend that medical devices is unconscionable. This is yet another assault on our personal liberties by the federal government and more to the point the Obama administration. If you thought the Patriot Act was a slippery slope, wait you haven't seen anything yet. Lisa
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:24 am

Cell phones are not private, you can pick there signals up with scanners. There have been quite a few cases of finding missing persons by triangulating cell phone signals. People with pace makers get routine phone tune-ups on their pace makers, probably on other implants as well. But if you think that you could ever have a totally private cell phone conversation that has never been the case to my knowledge.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:31 am

It's one thing for that to happen in conversations between individuals or doctors or at the request of individuals due to safety concerns and quite another for the federal government to initiate the action and maintain a registry of the data. This is scary stuff - ask yourself how much of this information would you provide if the government directly asked for it. You wouldn't, you'd be screaming that it was unconstitutional. The administration knows that and so they decided to "go under the table" to do it anyway. This information is a lot more personal then the questions on the census forms and people are having second thoughts about those. Lisa
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:34 am

Maybe we should all watch this again...
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:45 am

samhill wrote:Cell phones are not private, you can pick there signals up with scanners. There have been quite a few cases of finding missing persons by triangulating cell phone signals. People with pace makers get routine phone tune-ups on their pace makers, probably on other implants as well. But if you think that you could ever have a totally private cell phone conversation that has never been the case to my knowledge.


Even if you accidentally pick up a cell phone conversation, it's still illegal to record it in most states. That's why all businesses have that "this call is being recorded for quality assurance" message. It's illegal to record a phone conversation without both parties knowledge, unless one party is law enforcement and they have gone to a judge and described the people, places, and things which they are investigating.

Until the PATRIOT Act rolled around anyway. I told people back then who supported it to be careful what they wished for because you didn't know what subsequent administrations would do with it.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: brckwlt On: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:43 pm

Wood'nCoal wrote:Maybe we should all watch this again...
1984.jpg



ive never watched it. maybe i should
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:33 pm

It does not matter if the war is not real, or when it is real, it does not matter if victory is not possible.....The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous.....The essential act of modern warfare is the destruction of the produce of human labor.... A hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance...In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation.....The war is waged by the ruling group against it's own subjects, and it's object is not victory over Eurasia or East Asia (or Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, or Iran) but to keep the very structure of society intact.

-George Orwell 1984
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:08 pm

jpete wrote: It's illegal to record a phone conversation without both parties knowledge, unless one party is law enforcement and they have gone to a judge and described the people, places, and things which they are investigating.


That's not the case, the laws vary by states. Most states allow it as long as one party that is participating in the conversation is aware of it, you yourself would qualify as one party. Pennsylvania is one of the few states where you need to let the other party know you are recording.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:16 pm

http://www.pimall.com/nais/n.recordlaw.html
There are twelve states that require all party consent. They are:


California
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Illinois
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Montana
New Hampshire
Pennsylvania
Washington
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:26 pm

Richard S. wrote:
jpete wrote: It's illegal to record a phone conversation without both parties knowledge, unless one party is law enforcement and they have gone to a judge and described the people, places, and things which they are investigating.


That's not the case, the laws vary by states. Most states allow it as long as one party that is participating in the conversation is aware of it, you yourself would qualify as one party. Pennsylvania is one of the few states where you need to let the other party know you are recording.


But would those recordings be admissible in court?

And whether a private party can record a conversation, the fact remains that LE SHOULD have to get a warrant. I understand that's not the case, but it should be.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:10 pm

jpete wrote:
But would those recordings be admissible in court?


I don't see why they wouldn't be if they were obtained legally.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:19 pm

Lisa, I can see why this Times article would upset you. Until I read it about four times it upset me, too. It is an artful stitching together of disparate facts and suspicions, intended to upset us and make us overlook its slant.

Example: Read the second sentence again, and you will see it talks of "postmarket DEVICE surveillance" (emphasis mine), not surveillance of people.

Example: Third sentence. Very true, the word "surveillance" is disturbing because of its usual connotation of watching people. But you don't get upset when I say I conduct surveillance of the wetland from my duck blind.

Example: Fourth sentence. "Some have suggested the law lays the groundwork for compulsory microchip implantation...." Well, sure, and some have suggested that aliens teleport thousands of us to their flying saucers, anal-probe us (you'd think when they've seen one, they've seen them all), then teleport us back to our beds with no memory of the experience. Only a dishonest writer strings together a partial truth (surveillance sounds scary) with a paranoid delusion to twist our emotions.

Example: Second and third paragraphs. Straightforward, informational, not scary. Brilliant writing, allows us to relax as it transitions to the next:

Example: Fourth paragraph. Brings up a court case involving (I think) the Patriot Act, passed under the Bush administration. The Executive Branch of the government is charged by the Constitution to enforce the law, and the Justice Department is charged with defending the laws in court, regardless of whether the current president agrees with the law or not. Would you want it any other way? And yet the Times article implies that the whole law is Obama's idea. That is dishonest writing.

Example: Fifth paragraph. "... the Obama administration's incessant drive to expand government power over Americans' private lives..." That's plainly a jump in logic, something that I would want proved to me, and yet the writer acts as if I should accept it as an established fact.

Example: Last paragraph. "The health care law's provision mandating the purchase of health insurance, for example, is an unprecedented and unconstitutional claim of power under the Commerce Clause...." That is very much up for debate -- the law is carefully formulated in terms of taxes, not simple mandates. Most serious legal scholars believe it WILL hold up in court. We may or may not agree that Congress should do that. However, the writer presents as established fact something he knows is not yet established. Again, dishonest writing.

So while I admire the writer's skill at being dishonest, I ended up not very upset by the "surveillance" factor, but very upset at his manipulation of my feelings. And your feelings. He is preaching to the choir -- if you start by WANTING to believe what he is saying then it is easy to overlook his tricks and distortions.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:08 pm

rberq wrote:Example: Fifth paragraph. "... the Obama administration's incessant drive to expand government power over Americans' private lives..." That's plainly a jump in logic, something that I would want proved to me, and yet the writer acts as if I should accept it as an established fact.
.


BHO reupped the PATRIOT Act when he had a chance to let the sunset provision kick in. Is that enough of an "established fact"?

And whether anyone wants to believe it or not, the health care bill will expand government intrusion in your life.
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:47 am

No Rberg you are wrong as is the Obama administration. I am not surprised some individuals would try to bend the truth and it's not the Washington Times. This is scary because it's unconstitutional and infringes our our personal liberties. It should make every American angry! For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would willingly give up personal liberties so easily. I liken it to a dam being eaten away from below the water line, you can't see it but little by little the water is chipping away and one day it will be too late and the entire dam is going no matter what. The constitution is our "dam" against tyranny. Not paying attention to the attacks against it has allows us to lose many of the freedoms we once took for granted. Take smoking for example, since when has a citizen not been allowed to enjoy a legally available product any where they chose or why is approximately $1300 added to each new car in the questionable name of gas mileage. Obama has sworn that under Cap and Tax "energy bills will necessarily skyrocket." College money is now government controlled - those who control the pocket pocket wield a heavy influence over behavior. As a parent you know that; why is the government involved in what was a private enterprise. Why are you now a majority stock holder in GM? Why does he or the government have anything to say about your energy bills? No, Rberg, history will come down on the side of the American people on this one. You will have to decide where you will stand, with the Constitution or with the Socialists chipping away at our liberties. If you chose the Socialists, that's your right but be honest about what's going on. Lisa
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Re: another obamacare surprise

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:18 am

Once again I took some time to look this one up & could find nothing but rumor, no facts what so ever, not on fact check or snoops. I`m not saying it isn`t so but it would be nice to see some facts. Thats one of the main problems that I see in politics right now, you can`t believe most of what either side puts out, but yet when someone hears what they want to they swear that its the gospel truth.
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