carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:51 pm

I know no one here likes to read any opposing opinions but maybe just try it once & see what you think, even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in awhile. " www/common dreams.org/carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters"
samhill
 
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Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: Hambden Bob On: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:12 pm

Sam,with all due respect to you as a U.S. Militairy Vet,I regretted making it to the homepage of the referenced website. I went no farther. It's just not what I would call anything but a schill for marxism and socialism. Carter's failed policies decimated our Militairy and put us in terrible positions with our adversaries of the era. I have no respect for him and/or his daughter. You are a good man,but we are forever diametrically opposed in our politics. Thank God we both believe in Coal.
Hambden Bob
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman 1998 Magnum Stoker
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Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:21 pm

Sorry you didn`t take the time to read, its basically just from a 76 or 77 speech about what he wanted to do towards the energy policy. As far as most of his military policies he had crap for advisors. The rescue mission failed because they wanted to keep it so secret they didn`t even tell the flight & maint. crews that they would be flying over desert. There for there were no sand filters installed & most of the choppers failed, he was gun shy for everything after that.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
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Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: Hambden Bob On: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:33 pm

Sam,when we post to each other,we display a genuine respect,not some false politically correct product that's labeled respect. In my eyes you did something for your Country,and at cost of your personal freedom in doing it. You've made your place here. You've earned it. You also get extra snacky cakes 'cause your a pleasure to discuss with and not a stinker. :) Different viewpoints are needed in this Life. The problem occurs on a website when active posters appear to be basically Conservative,and Liberal Activists drop by just to P.O. the folks and be a destructive presence. I was always taught to stay out of neighborhoods where I wasn't wanted and to expect a supreme rear-end kicking from the residents if I was to go there just to cause trouble. I guess the bottom line is your not a punk,and I'm glad to talk to you.
Hambden Bob
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman 1998 Magnum Stoker
Coal Size/Type: Rice-A-Roni !

Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:12 pm

Well thank you for that Bob, I try & read everyones posts just to enlighten myself as to the point they are trying to make, try to take in everything with an open mind. There is good & evil everywhere no matter what your view point. I even drop by fox news every once in a while & sometimes I learn something. I listened to Ron Paul last night & learned a new respect for the man, I`m surprised no one else say it even if it was on the evil CNN, theres always more than one side to everything. I didn`t serve to earn anyones respect, lord knows coming home back then didn`t earn you anything even close to it, I was selfish & did it mostly for myself because I thought it was the right thing to do, probably secondly for civic duty. In any event I`m glad I did, learned a lot that just maybe I would have been better off not knowing but after sorting it all out have no regrets.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
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Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: Hambden Bob On: Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:42 pm

Good....Let's go forward..Also,my spelling and grammar have taken a heck of a dip lately...Get out the MRI
Hambden Bob
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman 1998 Magnum Stoker
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Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:03 am

Presidents tend to rely heavily on thier advisers--now there must be an interesting bunch of people with no self serving issues :lol:
freetown fred
 
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Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:15 am

Nice try Mr. Samhill.

"What we do.
We use the latest technology to bring the progressive community together online.

We create political organizing tools and new models for Internet activism.

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Great thread though, I agree with Bob, great way to put it. Sam, you have my respect too, for the exact same reasons Bob put so well.
Personally, I hope I can continue to learn to discuss without my usual knee-jerk reactions to what I percieve as liberal threats to any remaining sense of security I have; in light of the current US and World situation.
I'm a keyboard Commando, I know it. I write sometimes just to hear my own clever words and release the viscious literary beast within. How egotistical and unproductive.
The media these days seems to be designed for population control; keep everybody in fear and demoralized.
You guys have a good day.
Dann757
 

Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:43 am

The premise that government stifled wind and solar is false. Let's take the conclusion at the end of this article

It is now more economical to build power generating stations using wind than using coal, oil, gas, or nuclear. When amortized over the life of a typical mortgage, installing solar power in a house in most parts of the US is cheaper than drawing power from the grid. (Shell and British Petroleum are among the world's largest manufacturers of solar photovoltaic panels, which can now even be used as roofing shingles.) And hybrid cars that get 50-70 miles to the gallon are increasingly commonplace on our nation's highways. Instead of taking a strong stand to make America energy independent, Bush kisses a Saudi crown prince, then holds hands with him as they walk into Bush's hobby ranch in Texas. Our young men and women are daily dying in Iraq - a country with the world's second largest store of underground oil. And we live in fear that another 15 Saudis may hijack more planes to fly into our nation's capitol or into nuclear power plants.

Meanwhile, Bush brings us an energy bill that includes eight billion dollars in welfare payments to the oil business, just as the nation's oil companies report the highest profits in the entire history of the industry. Americans struggle to pay for gasoline, while the Bush administration refuses to increase fleet efficiency standards, stop the $100,000 tax break for buying Hummers, or maintain and build Amtrak. George Bush Jr. is arguably right that gas prices are spiking because we don't have an energy policy. But instead of blaming Clinton, he should be pointing to the Reagan/Bush administration, and to his own abysmal failures over the past four years.


I can punch so many holes in this it's ridiculous, let's take the first statement "more economical to build power generating stations using wind" Really? Why are we subsidizing these projects by about 50% through federal and state subsidies? The answer is simple, they would never get built because they can't compete. Freddy has a windmill, ask him if he would build another another one.

The following statement says: "When amortized over the life of a typical mortgage, installing solar power in a house in most parts of the US is cheaper than drawing power from the grid" ... Figures from the solar industry peg the magical number at about $1 per watt to compete with coal. Currently cost per watt hovers around $4+. I'm going to take wild guess the author is taking into account the final cost to the homeowner which is substantially less than the real cost. For example you'll see these stories on the news of people installing solar in California and expect a return in 25 years which is about the lifetime of such installation. What they will fail to mention is the state of California is picking up half the tab.

After that it's followed by some leftist crap.... and then we get to the whopper of $8 billion in subsidies to the oil companies. Firstly I would like to see a reference for that figure, the EIA puts the number at about $3 billion in 2007. Let's just say for minute that is true and they do get 8 billion a year. That comes up to a little over 1 cent per gallon of fuel, compare that to the more than 50 cents the government collects at the pump or the $30 billion Exxon alone paid in income taxes in 2007.

Then the author goes onto lament about Amtrak? WTF... Amtrak was supposed to self sustaining shortly after it was created but has been drain on the US taxpayer ever since.

This author is an idiot, the last two paragraphs alone are filled with nothing but made up figures. There is nothing to support what this author is stating, nothing.


---------edit----------

Keep in mind Samhill the people that you are citing would have your coal furnace shut down in an instance if they could. It wouldn't matter what you showed them or pointed out. It's coal, it's bad.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:59 am

Richard, I was merely pointing out that Carter knew what was coming down the pike in 1976-77, what the other guy said was of no importance. The fact was we were made aware way back then & could have been developing better & cheaper forms of energy. By the way how many coal nuke or hydro plants are built without Gov. funding? And that 30B in Exxon taxes is what they paid all Gov.s that they deal with combined & on their total revenue more like 405B. that works out to about7%.
samhill
 
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Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:40 pm

samhill wrote: By the way how many coal nuke or hydro plants are built without Gov. funding?


Here's most of the numbers from that 2007 EIA document, the reason I use this frequently even though it's out of date is because it's the one source I'm aware of that lays it all on the table and the EIA is similar to the CBO. They are supposed to be independent and non-partisan. The renewable sectors will be receiving much more now.

    Table ES5
  • Coal
      Net generation in billion kilowatthours: 1,946
      Subsidization : $854 million
      Cost per megawatthour of generation $0.44
  • Refined Coal
      Net generation in billion kilowatthours: 72
      Subsidization : $2,156 million
      Cost per megawatthour of generation: $29.81
  • Nuclear
      Net generation in billion kilowatthours: 794
      Subsidization : $1,267 million
      Cost per megawatthour of generation: $1.59
  • Hydroelectric
      Net generation in billion kilowatthours: 258
      Subsidization : $174 million
      Cost per megawatthour of generation: $0.67

  • Solar
      Net generation in billion kilowatthours: 1
      Subsidization : $14 million
      Cost per megawatthour of generation: $24.34
  • Wind 31 724
      Net generation in billion kilowatthours: 31
      Subsidization : $724 million
      Cost per megawatthour of generation: $23.37

Source: Federal Financial Interventions and Subsidies in Energy Markets 2007


Note that while most of these subsides in all these sectors went to direct tax breaks effectively subsidizing production the bulk of the coal subsidies went to R&D. :)

The section listing "refined coal" is not well defined in the document but is either subsidies for products like k-fuel or coal to liquid fuels production. If we combine both coal subsidies the cost per megawatt rises to about $1.50

Hydro is pretty much saturated and expansion in that area is unlikely, I know there is a lot of funds on the table right now available to the power companies for nuclear. Why they are not taking advantage of them is many reasons but I'd guess the biggest reason is because the Cap & Tax bill hovering over their heads. Until this is resolved many of these utilities are not going to start any projects like that requiring huge amounts of capital until they know what they need to do to meet future requirements. Nuclear power is not considered renewable so it won't fall under an mandates. If that remains the case you can expect nuclear to take a back seat because they will invest in wind and solar to meet future mandates.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
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Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:40 pm

I think the biggest reason there isn`t any type of energy producing type plants is because of all the money thats tied up in the courts by all kind of groups & individuals that don`t want anything in their back yards. They just had a tires to energy plant that had gotten all permits & jumped thru all the hoops pull out of a zoned industrial area because of this. Now they are moving south to Crawford County where it will start all over again, except so far it looks better here.
We here in Crawford County do have a very profitable cow dung to energy plant to brag about already, it my be s**t to you but its that farmers bread & butter.
samhill
 
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Re: carter tried to stop bush`s energy disasters

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:01 pm

samhill wrote:Richard, I was merely pointing out that Carter knew what was coming down the pike in 1976-77, what the other guy said was of no importance. The fact was we were made aware way back then & could have been developing better & cheaper forms of energy. By the way how many coal nuke or hydro plants are built without Gov. funding? And that 30B in Exxon taxes is what they paid all Gov.s that they deal with combined & on their total revenue more like 405B. that works out to about7%.


We (meaning the government and informed citizens) have all known that the supply and demand components for oil were on a collision course. It was no secret that oil is not a renewable resource. The reason we haven't fully developed better and cheaper forms of energy is because there are NO cheaper forms of convenient energy that have not already been exploited (like hydro), and the "better", which I assume means cleaner, all require more expense. The only form of energy that can truly meet our current needs, after fossil fuels, is nuclear, but it isn't considered "cleaner".

Above all, one must also consider that there is a strategic need for the US to control global oil. This is to say that our use of oil, our preeminence since WWII, the petrodollar, our oil companies and their hegemony in the Middle East and elsewhere have all contributed to a high standard of living which will certainly decline when the oil runs out. Advances in extraction technology are extending that date. Currently that technology is held by the US oil companies despite holding little oil.

The US influence over the oil business is largely through that technology and the petrodollar. Oil enables the US to be preeminent in living standards through the availability and consumption of oil, and to publicly borrow money at will based on the global necessity of holding US dollars for purchasing oil on the futures markets. The petrodollar also enables the US to inflate the money supply at will, vastly reducing its debts.

Those are powers that we have arguably abused as a nation. But I cannot fault our leaders for their promotion of the people. I can however fault them for the spending sprees that further required our accumulation of heavy debts through oil hegemony. That we didn't conserve oil isn't a problem because when the oil is gone, we will adapt. That we didn't manage our spending is irresponsible as a people because when the oil is gone, our debts and obligations will remain on the heads of our progeny.
mikeandgerry
 
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