Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:12 pm

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 70844.html

The Securities and Exchange Commission on Friday charged Goldman Sachs Group Inc. with defrauding investors, alleging that Goldman let a big hedge fund fill a financial product with risky subprime mortgages and then failed to disclose that to the product's buyers.

The SEC said in the civil complaint that Goldman and Fabrice Tourre, then vice president, created and sold opaque collateralized-debt obligations, or CDOs, that hinged on the performance of subprime-mortgage-backed securities.

Goldman Sachs called the accusations "completely unfounded in law and fact," and refuted key points of the complaint in an extensive rebuttal, claiming that the firm itself lost $90 million in the transactions.


Once they get done here they need to move onto the big fish Freddie and Frannie.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Goldman Sachs Chraged with Fraud

PostBy: Duengeon master On: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:15 pm

If they are found guilty then fry them. Then the next guy might think twice!!!!! ;)
Duengeon master
 
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: Dann757 On: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:55 pm

This is a good time to buy their stock.

The SEC, who let Bernie Madoff get away with it for so long despite whistleblowers alerts.
Dann757
 


Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: freetown fred On: Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:01 pm

My personal opinion is that it will just get lost in the cracks.Unfortunatly,w/ a company that size & with that much money,the buck stops nowhere--nobody will take responsebility for anything--"it was the other guys fault"they'll be turning on each other like rabid dogs :( Some poor nobody will end up being the scapegoat :mad2:
freetown fred
 
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:09 pm

My guess would be that there must have still been some restrictions on the way the poor guys were doing business, they should have never even been questioned. Let big business run wild they will look out for everybody, let them make & take all the money, its good for the country, been working real well for decades now.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:06 pm

samhill wrote:My guess would be that there must have still been some restrictions on the way the poor guys were doing business, they should have never even been questioned. Let big business run wild they will look out for everybody, let them make & take all the money, its good for the country, been working real well for decades now.


While I understand your sarcasm, you don't seem to have a clear grasp on the reality of the situation.

There is plenty of regulation on all businesses, especially banking. And my guess is, GS was compliant with it all.

The problem is, the fools at the SEC aren't bankers. They don't understand it. They aren't as smart as the guys at GS. The SEC went through them multiple times, just like they did Bernie Madoff.

But what the banks know is that the FDIC was insuring bank deposits, and Fannie and Freddie were insuring mortgages, and they knew the government considered them "to big to fail" so that no matter what they did, it was heads they win, tails we lose.

When I and others say "less regulation", we mean less insurance, less backstopping of these companies.

If the CEO of GS thought he could drive the place into the ground and he'd end up selling pencils on a street corner, do you think he'd invent mortgage backed securities and credit default swaps? Do you think they offer "no doc" loans?

A free market means you are free to fail miserably too. As usual, government has it's thumb on the scale f*cking up the markets.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:41 am

Regulations & laws are only good if they are enforced, there may very well be all the regulations in place to prevent these type of things but if not enforced for whatever reason then there might as well be anys laws at all.
Here`s another good one I heard this AM, it seems that prisoners have for a long time been getting income tax returns. Its been known for a long time but it seems that everyone has to do their own investigation so it just keeps going on for decades & millions upon millions of tax dollars.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: Hambden Bob On: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:55 am

Sam,in the financial and incarceration worlds,would be known as "Pro's and CON'S" :roll:
Hambden Bob
 
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:08 am

It's early,but,I like it :D
freetown fred
 
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: rberq On: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:55 am

These big bankers have been excusing themselves for the financial crisis, saying, Oh my goodness, it got so complicated nobody understood the situation. Now it turns out that Goldman - Paulson DID clearly understand the situation and executed plans to profit billions of dollars from it. If they understood it, you can bet plenty of their buddies understood, too, and a lot of the recent crisis was an intentional rip off. Plans are not all that should be executed.
rberq
 
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:37 am

samhill wrote:My guess would be that there must have still been some restrictions on the way the poor guys were doing business, they should have never even been questioned. Let big business run wild they will look out for everybody, let them make & take all the money, its good for the country, been working real well for decades now.


What we do want is to make sure these large financial institutions cannot do this again, as pointed out jpete the government provided them the vehicle to do this. The problem is the government is going to come in and make some very poor decisions, I can tell you that without even looking at anything. They'll be regulating things they don't need too, not regulating what they should ...etc. While a heavy hand needs to be applied to those that would risk financial disaster again we don't want to make it so burdensome that you are typing their hands so they can't do anything. I have zero confidence in any legislation that might come out of congress no matter which side it is coming from.

If you look at what is going on with the mining regulations you can get good idea of what will happen. Those regulations put a lot of people out of work and closed a lot of mines yet we still have disaster which is looking like it might have been caused by negligence on the part of the mine owner and the government oversight. Since the whole story hasn't come out yet I'm not going to state that is the case. Half the problem there is they are so over regulated with minor crap you have situation where both the mine and the inspectors are chasing after violations that are inconsequential, time and money that could have been spent on what is important.

The Democrats are going to make a big show about protecting the miners just like they are with financial regulations. They'll have bunch of them sitting their smiling for the camera but int the end you'll have more burdensome oversight AND not addressing what is wrong with the system now.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:45 am

What needs to happen at that mine is for the CEO to be brought up on negligent homicide charges. The buck stops at the top and you can bet if his feet were held to the fire, there wouldn't be safety violations in his mines.

But that's not what will happen. The company will pay a fine, and those families will have to struggle without the main breadwinner there anymore. The wheel will go round and nothing will change. It's a damn shame.
jpete
 
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:23 pm

jpete wrote:there wouldn't be safety violations in his mines.


There isn't mine in this country an inspector couldn't walk into and start writing violations. As I said that is half the trouble.

I don't want to speak for the miners but my guess is you took a vote in this area they give the inspectors the boot.

You might be interested in this Coalcast show where Mike who works in the mines explains some of the problems with the regulations put in place after the Sago disaster.

CoalCast_Episode_005_20090604.mp3

There is some follow up the next few shows. Like I said regulation doesn't necessarily mean there is a benefit, over regulation can be harmful to an industry. What you need is realistic and practical regulation and I would suggest severe consequences for those not following the rules. For example long prison terms for any of these bankers along the chain if it's found they are accused of doing what they did. No passing the buck, you're all responsible.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: rberq On: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:58 pm

Richard S. wrote:The problem is the government is going to come in and make some very poor decisions ....They'll be regulating things they don't need too, not regulating what they should

Agreed. But in defense of the regulators, it is almost impossible to regulate to the level of detail necessary, without many of the regs being ridiculous for the majority of cases. Case in point: some bureaucrat at my workplace decided it is necessary to post a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) beside the soap dispenser in the bathroom. Don't get it in your eyes, use only with adequate ventilation, don't eat it.

And if there ISN'T a regulation against doing something really stupid, then when there is a disaster the offender hides behind all the other rules and says, "I did everything I was supposed to do".

We could impose the reasonable-man test. The regulation could simply say, "Keep the mine safe". Inspectors and courts and juries would then use their common-sense judgment to enforce and to punish. But then you would find bribery of inspectors to influence their "judgement".... you would find vengeful second-guessing by grieving relatives looking to blame somebody, anybody.... you would find different versions of common sense introduced by plaintiffs seeking damages.... you would find even more political grandstanding (shall we call it "extortion"?) against even responsible mine operators.

No matter what the regulation, or non-regulation, there is somebody willing to scam the system. It makes a person pessimistic about our future as a society.
rberq
 
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Re: Goldman Sachs Charged with Fraud

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:11 pm

Agree with rberg for sure on that one.

Mixed emotions about this documentary: http://www.coalcountrythemovie.com/

I saw it, and they portrayed the mine owner as a heartless evil devil.

However, the website above is rife with the typical Hollyweird Celebrity save the everything quotes. Same celebs that have assistants gas up their Mercedes and leave their mansions at 65 degrees in the summer while they jet to Europe for vacations.
Dann757