The end of commerce

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:00 am

KLook wrote: I think the value of the gold my family squirreled away is far far higher then an equal amount of FRN's that someone put in a box at the same time.

Kevin


That is because gold is money and FRN's are currency.

The four absolutes of money (per Aristotle) include:

Durable- the medium of exchange must not weather, fall apart, or become unusable. It must be able to stand the test of time.
Portable- relative to its size, it must be easily transportable and hold a large amount of universal value.
Divisible- should be relatively easy to separate and put back together without ruining its basic characteristics.
Intrinsically Valuable- should be valuable in and of itself, and its value should be totally independent of any other object. Essentially, the item must be rare.

FRN's fail at multiple of these defining characteristics of money. The only characteristic in Aristotle's list that they possess is portability. You may think they are divisible, but if you cut gold or silver in half or into a million pieces they are still gold and silver, and yes, they can be put back together. FRN's can't pass this test.
Last edited by lsayre on Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:07 am

I didn't make a snide remark KLook, I called it like I see it, someone that cares more for their own material possessions than they do about their country. If that's something to be proud of then that's a big part of what's wrong in America today IMHO, Ask Not What My Country Can Do For ME, everyone should know the rest. Hindsight is always 20/20, I'm talking what was known then.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:14 am

samhill wrote:I didn't make a snide remark KLook, I called it like I see it, someone that cares more for their own material possessions than they do about their country. If that's something to be proud of then that's a big part of what's wrong in America today IMHO, Ask Not What My Country Can Do For ME, everyone should know the rest. Hindsight is always 20/20, I'm talking what was known then.


This country was founded by individuals who cared so very much for their individual property (possessions) that for the first and only time in the history of humanity they gave us a nation that did not consider property or possessions or liberty or wealth or the right to hold thoughts, say what you want, write what you want, etc... to be the regulated or regulatable gifts (privileges) of the state. Kennedy was a very wrong headed collectivist.

IMHO, the biggest mistake that Thomas Jefferson made in penning the 'Declaration Of Independence' was 'n changing John Locke's phrase "life, liberty, and property" to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:04 pm

lsayre wrote:IMHO, the biggest mistake that Thomas Jefferson made in penning the 'Declaration Of Independence' was 'n changing John Locke's phrase "life, liberty, and property" to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

I like Jefferson's phrasing better because it recognizes that the means to happiness could be property, or intellectual freedom, or religious as well. Property alone leaves out these things which are highly individualistic.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:10 pm

franco b wrote:
lsayre wrote:IMHO, the biggest mistake that Thomas Jefferson made in penning the 'Declaration Of Independence' was 'n changing John Locke's phrase "life, liberty, and property" to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

I like Jefferson's phrasing better because it recognizes that the means to happiness could be property, or intellectual freedom, or religious as well. Property alone leaves out these things which are highly individualistic.


Objectivists will argue that there are in fact no rights without property rights, beginning with the right to ones own person. The things that you mention are ancillary to the right to ones own person. I would imagine that John Locke was thinking along such absolute lines, and Jefferson took a broader, less rigid, and more 'libertarian' view of the mater.

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/property_rights.html
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:31 pm

lsayre wrote:Objectivists will argue that there are in fact no rights without property rights, beginning with the right to ones own person. The things that you mention are ancillary to the right to ones own person. I would imagine that John Locke was thinking along such absolute lines, and Jefferson took a broader, less rigid, and more 'libertarian' view of the mater.

Ones own person is not generally thought of as a property right, although as you put it, it could. Property seems to imply a too mechanistic approach to a problem that is anything but. Jefferson's way better addresses this poorly understood problem by leaving it hazy.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:25 pm

I didn't make a snide remark KLook, I called it like I see it, someone that cares more for their own material possessions than they do about their country. If that's something to be proud of then that's a big part of what's wrong in America today IMHO, Ask Not What My Country Can Do For ME, everyone should know the rest. Hindsight is always 20/20, I'm talking what was known then.


This country was founded because of people like you. And because you have never had what you think is a fair shot, you are perfectly willing to promote taking what others have earned, no matter how, and give it to others that might of might not be deserving of something. Your anger at management and entitled people is apparent. My grandparents were dirt poor, living in a 2 room shed with no running water, no insulation, no foundation, no electricity, and an outhouse. Because they worked hard and earned what they had, I have had an easier life. I and I alone will determine HOW much to give to others of what I earn. But that is an antiquated notion as your ilk have taken that away and now fund those things that MUST be done with tax dollars.
Simply put, you say my system failed and I say your system caused it to fail. My system is still working but it is not the dominant one right now.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:13 pm

Man KLook, you got all of that out of one short statement That had nothing to do with it. That's quite a chore, perhaps you may want to rest now. :gee:
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:18 pm

franco b wrote:
lsayre wrote:Objectivists will argue that there are in fact no rights without property rights, beginning with the right to ones own person. The things that you mention are ancillary to the right to ones own person. I would imagine that John Locke was thinking along such absolute lines, and Jefferson took a broader, less rigid, and more 'libertarian' view of the mater.

Ones own person is not generally thought of as a property right, although as you put it, it could. Property seems to imply a too mechanistic approach to a problem that is anything but. Jefferson's way better addresses this poorly understood problem by leaving it hazy.


If you say the HBO series "John Adams" or read the book it's based on, Jefferson likely left the "property" language in there but because of the slavery issue, "property" was a sticky wicket.

Jefferson also had a hand in the Virginia constitution and Article 1 says:

Section 1. Equality and rights of men.

That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.


http://constitution.legis.virginia.gov/
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:21 pm

franco b wrote:Ones own person is not generally thought of as a property right, although as you put it, it could..


You don't think of it that way because you(or any of us) were never TAUGHT to think that way. Watch the first 30 seconds of "The Philosophy of Liberty" for that. Watch the whole thing really, it's very good.

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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:49 pm

Yes, it is very good, and makes good sense. It becomes harder though in modern civilization to follow these precepts which were imposed on us genetically to adapt to life in the clan and tribe, where things were up close and personal and much harder for a leader to accumulate the power to oppress.

The abysmal working conditions during the early days of the industrial revolution were gradually bettered by force; both by government and unions. Not by the altruism of individual factory or mine owners who even if they wanted to change conditions they could not and remain competitive. Modern civilization has simply made it possible for too much power to be concentrated in few hands and much harder to defeat except by enforced collective action, as in drafting soldiers.

Abject poverty did not exist in Native American society unless the entire tribe was subject to that condition, but in our modern super tribe its out of sight and out of mind. Collective enforced action seems to be the only remedy.

I agree with the Libertarian philosophy because it is instinctive and natural, but it is also in conflict with a society that is not.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:22 pm

It's not "natural" because no one is taught the philosophy of liberty.

Collectivism is natural because we all mainly go to the same collective institutions(schools, churches, etc) and we're all taught the same collective things.

If we were taught to be individuals first, and that each individual MUST be respected, then that would be the "natural" way we thought of things.

But that doesn't suit the 1% so that's not what we get.

And don't take that as a slam against "the rich", it's not. I'd like to be one of them some day. I just don't want to do it by holding everyone else down.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:09 pm

jpete wrote:It's not "natural" because no one is taught the philosophy of liberty.

It is natural because it is innate in our species. What has to be taught is how to meld it into current society. Not easy.

To act collectively refers to a tendency to form a pack just as dogs do. That's why they make such good pets and are often willing to die for you just as many humans do. It also is innate and is responsible for many of the aberrations we face in a society that is too easily manipulated by those with the skill to do so.

We are in an atomic age with a mental tool kit designed hundreds of thousands of years ago.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:33 pm

franco b wrote:It is natural because it is innate in our species. .


I'm not so sure about that. The history of the world shows more of a tendency toward oppression than freedom. And while we've approached "freedom" as a species from time to time, I don't think we've ever gotten there.

I'm not even sure *MOST* people even want freedom.

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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: grumpy On: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:44 pm

Good videos Jeff, thanks for posting them.
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