The end of commerce

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:38 pm

Sam: A Fractional Reserve gold standard will not work any better than Fractional Reserve banking does today if the maximum fractional reserve lending ratio of 10:1 (paper money to gold) is routinely breached and violated instead of being honored. The Constitution did not advocate either a gold standard or a Federal Reserve or Fractional Reserve banking (be it gold backed or fantasy backed). It advocated simply that only gold and sliver were to be money. There is a huge difference between a standard whereby only a small fraction is to be backed (Fractional Reserve), and a system whereby money itself is pure silver and pure gold. My bet lies with the Constitution.

And by the way, your link was amateurish Keynesian revisionism at best, and not serious scholarship on gold. Did you know that in 1966 a real scholar named Alan Greenspan wrote this (before he was coerced to the dark side):

http://www.constitution.org/mon/greenspan_gold.htm

Please read it and let us know what you think of his scholarly dissertation.
lsayre
 
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:50 pm

I think it would only work if it was kept closed to prevent another country from demanding payment in gold as I have said before. The gold standard would only protect those with the gold & leave tin for the commoners much like we seem to be striving for now. What the money is backed by makes little difference once it's all been hoarded by the money changers.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:04 pm

samhill wrote:I think it would only work if it was kept closed to prevent another country from demanding payment in gold as I have said before. The gold standard would only protect those with the gold & leave tin for the commoners much like we seem to be striving for now. What the money is backed by makes little difference once it's all been hoarded by the money changers.


Sam, it fails only if interest rates are not permitted to rise and fall in order to facilitate the flow of gold in the desired direction. Did you not read Alan Greenspan's explanation of this? The reason why Great Britain was losing its gold to the USA (and others) was that it refused to raise interest rates due not to banking prudence and practice but rather to good old political pressure (I.E. the desire for the party in power to stay in power, and its refusal to permit interest rates to rise to reverse the gold outflow and turn it into a gold inflow). It was thereby government manipulation that caused the unchecked outflow of gold from Great Britain, and it was government malfeasance that caused the outflow of gold when Nixon closed the gold link to the Dollar. Back then the bankers knew how to make it work, but they were not left to do so. Government is the real party to blame in both cases where the gold standard took the blame. And the tool of the government in both cases was the central bank. Bernanke admitted to Milton Freedman (and therefore to the world) that our Federal Reserve caused the great depression, but Alan Greenspan beat him to it by a few decades with his dissertation that I asked you to read.

The system you endorse has failed miserably and is collapsing the worlds economies and will ultimately bring us to world war and/or a one world government. Why do you cling to it?
lsayre
 
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:42 pm

It's always easy to point blame, just who would control the monetary gold & decide when to raise or lower inflation, just who or what group of who's would be in charge? The present system is far from perfect but one must be absolutely sure you go in the right direction before going down the same road to ruin & expecting to come to a different destination. Greenspan if I remember was a large part of our problem & when he saw the end was near he quit.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:50 pm

samhill wrote:It's always easy to point blame, just who would control the monetary gold & decide when to raise or lower inflation, just who or what group of who's would be in charge?


Each local bank raises or lowers its own interest rates independently in conjunction with its own needs to stay in balance and keep its (minimum) 10% reserve of gold intact. Cumulatively this ultimately and inevitably drives the national direction of interest rates from the bottom up. But only autonomous banks can act autonomously. Central banks muddy the waters to the behest of the government every time, and dictate interest rates from the top down. Can you not admit that governments and fascist like mega-conglomerate control (privately owned but government manipulated central banks being the ultimate example of this) are the real root problem here?

Why is there ZERO Congressional oversight and auditing of the books and assets and dealings of central banks (let alone transparency)? If they were on the up and up and being honest about things, wouldn't they welcome transparency, auditing, and Congressional oversight?
lsayre
 
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:34 am

http://www.federalreserveeducation.org/ ... basics.cfm
It may just be that you follow the popular current trend of if it's not what I want then it never happened. As I said the system isn't perfect IMO but there again I state that without inside info or anything to personally gain. The thing with Greenspan is which desired direction does he or any others believe is correct & what do they have to gain or lose? I'm sure there are many other economists that totally disagree with him but there again they would have to be amateurish & unlearned.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: franco b On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:33 am

samhill wrote: I'm sure there are many other economists that totally disagree with him but there again they would have to be amateurish & unlearned.

I find it hard to believe you wrote that. I thought you were against the transfer of wealth to the wealthy insiders in government and out.

Paul Volker must have been amateurish and unlearned since he did the opposite of current practice.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:27 am

Franco, if you read the past posts you'll find that Greenspan was referenced to the one in the know & the others that I brought up as an example were amateurs & unknowledgeable, I was simply referencing back to that which I believe you knew. My main question was & is just who would be directing or regulating if you prefer the direction of the gold.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: franco b On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:05 am

samhill wrote:Franco, if you read the past posts you'll find that Greenspan was referenced to the one in the know & the others that I brought up as an example were amateurs & unknowledgeable, I was simply referencing back to that which I believe you knew. My main question was & is just who would be directing or regulating if you prefer the direction of the gold.

Because gold has a limited supply and can't be artificially created it regulates itself. The same is true in theory with bitcoin, but in practice seems open to fraud.

I have read that current bank reserves are less than one tenth of one percent which takes very little to cause a crises, leading to bailouts.

Inflation is primarily a tax that hits the poor hardest since the wealthy receive full value from excess money because they receive it first and convert it to hard assets while the poor and hourly wage earners are last in line which accelerates the gap between rich and poor.

Money manipulation only creates wealth for those doing the manipulation while at the same time increasing their power and posing as champions of the poor.
franco b
 
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:41 pm

Sam, can you at least agree that the current monetary and banking system has failed miserably and caused the 2008 collapse, followed by artificial zero % interest rates, artificial declarations of near zero inflation, artificial reporting of employment improving, and endless varieties of bailouts and QE to the tune of about $16 trillion? Read Greenspan again. The monetary problems witnessed before the Federal Reserve (the cyclical booms and busts) were all minor and quick to rectify themselves by comparison to the disasters that have befallen us post the Federal Reserve and the demise of gold.
lsayre
 
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:54 pm

I'll agree that the greed of man caused most of the problem & no matter what form or metal used if allowed the greed will do it again which leads us back to my question of just who would be in command of the direction of the wealth.
samhill
 
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: franco b On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:10 pm

samhill wrote:I'll agree that the greed of man caused most of the problem & no matter what form or metal used if allowed the greed will do it again which leads us back to my question of just who would be in command of the direction of the wealth.

The free market will determine who survives. The accumulation of wealth is only a byproduct of the competitive instinct, rather than greed. Steve jobs, Bill Gates, Henry Ford, set out to build a better product than others; their motive was not greed.

The market is a rough and tumble place but does produce the best goods at the lowest price if left to do so. Greed and envy becomes the motivation of those less fitted or talented to stand the stress who seek to control the market with crackpot theory and make things worse.
franco b
 
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:27 pm

Over 20 failed job initiatives and still the left support him, why do you waste your time interacting. The gold standard option is now too late by about 100 years. Living within our means is now not an option.

All you need to know is that M2 is now in the toilet but still the number one priority is climate change - whatta bunch of clowns.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/arch ... record-low

So if this is correct then bad times are here and will continue until we are governed by people who understand wealth creation. If the economy is vibrant then all this other stuff does not matter.
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:37 pm

If your correct Franco, then where are all of our major manufacturers ? Didn't those three men want & received payment for their better products or were they just in the right place & time along with being smart enough? Ford made his product here & priced it right along with innovation & being smart enough to treat his workers more fairly so that even they could afford to buy. Gates & Jobs were perhaps ahead of their time, great at marketing & had the right product at the right time, there again how much of their products are American made?
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Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:56 pm

Ugh...late to the party and I can't stomach much more of Sam's willful ignorance on this subject.

I guess it makes little difference that we're had fiat money for less time in this country than we did hard currency.

The question of who controls inflation is so childish I can't believe it. Not that any of us believe Sam has any faith in a truly free market, which is exactly who controls inflation.

I bet he thinks "deflation" is a dirty word too. Never mind that prior to the Fed, we had a long period of deflation and everyone seemed pretty happy about it.

The Ford Model T originally cost about $900 and over time, fell to about $400. What a horrible world they must have lived in when the prices of things they wanted actually went down in stead of UP a nice manageable, completely illusory 2% year over year. :roll:

Sam, you're way out of your depth with this conversation. Just my opinion, but it's best you stop now. We'll call you when we need advice on running a plow or feeding cows.
jpete
 
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