The end of commerce

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:01 pm

franco b wrote:The free market will determine who survives. The accumulation of wealth is only a byproduct of the competitive instinct, rather than greed. Steve jobs, Bill Gates, Henry Ford, set out to build a better product than others; their motive was not greed.

The market is a rough and tumble place but does produce the best goods at the lowest price if left to do so. Greed and envy becomes the motivation of those less fitted or talented to stand the stress who seek to control the market with crackpot theory and make things worse.


So very well stated Franco! Thank you!!!
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:05 pm

samhill wrote:...... which leads us back to my question of just who would be in command of the direction of the wealth.


Local and fully autonomous banks would work in conjunction with their own interests (keeping balanced books being a prime one, but expanding their wealth being another) and with the interests of their individual customers needs to supply the best solution (products) they can at the best prices (rates of interest and/or return), else the customer will up and go to some other autonomous bank.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:12 pm

lsayre wrote:
samhill wrote:...... which leads us back to my question of just who would be in command of the direction of the wealth.


Local and fully autonomous banks would work in conjunction with their own interests (keeping balanced books being a prime one, but expanding their wealth being another) and with the interests of their individual customers needs to supply the best solution (products) they can at the best prices (rates of interest and/or return), else the customer will up and go to some other autonomous bank.


When all banks are under the thumb of the Federal Reserve (central bank) and it is in bed with the government, there is effectively no difference between doing your banking at one bank vs. another. Under such circumstances corruption and greed and government manipulation (favors) at the highest levels and you name it (anything less than honest and good can be added here, such as bundling trash mortgages destined to fail and calling them S&P and Moody's A+ rated securities) are needed for one bank to excel over another.

Why did the government allow some of the corrupt banks to collapse and then declare the others (just as corrupt or more so) too big to fail? Who's wheels got greased for this and to what extent?
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)


Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: franco b On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:35 pm

samhill wrote:If your correct Franco, then where are all of our major manufacturers ? Didn't those three men want & received payment for their better products or were they just in the right place & time along with being smart enough? Ford made his product here & priced it right along with innovation & being smart enough to treat his workers more fairly so that even they could afford to buy. Gates & Jobs were perhaps ahead of their time, great at marketing & had the right product at the right time, there again how much of their products are American made?

To remain competitive many manufacturers had to go where labor was cheaper and laws friendlier to business. Their job is to survive and make money which ultimately benefits all.

The personal wealth accumulated by Ford, Jobs, and Gates, is a drop in the ocean of the wealth they created.

Ford raised wages to address the turnover of workers. too many were quitting.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
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Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:27 pm

Thank you so much Jpete, I knew I could depend on you. I've said many times before & the offer is still open, anyone is welcome to send me that worthless script we commonly call money. Once again I'll ask (since everyone is so smart) just why is it that some rather intelligent people are more than willing to sell you "GOLD" for worthless fed reserve notes, if I were as smart as all of you I'd be buying all that "GOLD" for next to nothing. Aren't all those guys selling gold suckers. :roll: :lol:
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:39 pm

Next to nothing? I guess farming is rather lucrative if $1200/oz + is "next to nothing".

I'd be happy to ship you my Monopoly money if the government weren't forcing me to use it at the point of a gun.

Thousands of years of history and Sam doesn't know any of it.....
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:44 pm

Knowing isn't the problem Jpete, unlike some I learn from History & don't want to repeat what hasn't worked or what won't work in modern times. I don't want to go back in time but yet expect to have all the modern advancements we have today.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:48 pm

Sam: The Federal Reserve Note has demonstrably lost at least 83% of its purchasing power since 1971 (per the US Governments very own inflation calculator, which has been understating inflation for some time now). How much purchasing power has gold lost since 1971?
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:10 pm

Average Prices in 1971
-----------------------------
Car: $3,742
House: $28,300
Gas: $0.36
Bread: $0.25
Stamp: 8 cents
Ounce of Gold: $40.62
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:28 pm

lsayre wrote:Sam: The Federal Reserve Note has demonstrably lost at least 83% of its purchasing power since 1971 (per the US Governments very own inflation calculator, which has been understating inflation for some time now). How much purchasing power has gold lost since 1971?


The Fed says that $23.91 in 2014 will buy you what $1 would have bought you in 1913. This is the "better" arrangement Sam is cheer leading.

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/index.cfm

An ounce of gold was $18.92 in 1913 and that same ounce closed today $1244.50

http://www.nma.org/pdf/gold/his_gold_prices.pdf
http://www.goldpriceoz.com/
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:26 pm

Ah yes Jpete I somehow knew it wouldn't take long to get to that lovely year of by gone prices, I think your off a bit on some of those prices but it makes little difference. Seeing that you have a reading comp. problem I'll just ask you what you would be earning back in 1913, a lot of things are relevant, I wonder what a heating, cooling ventilation tech was earning back then, there again there probably wasn't much need for them. I would bet that prices were even much cheaper back in the 1800s & those people were probably complaining about their money not buying what it used to & that's even backed by "GOLD". All things that glitter are not gold.
I ran across this from a Libertarian no doubt.
http://www.naturalnews.com/026108_free_ ... umers.html
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:12 pm

samhill wrote:Ah yes Jpete I somehow knew it wouldn't take long to get to that lovely year of by gone prices, I think your off a bit on some of those prices but it makes little difference. Seeing that you have a reading comp. problem I'll just ask you what you would be earning back in 1913, a lot of things are relevant, I wonder what a heating, cooling ventilation tech was earning back then, there again there probably wasn't much need for them. I would bet that prices were even much cheaper back in the 1800s & those people were probably complaining about their money not buying what it used to & that's even backed by "GOLD". All things that glitter are not gold.
I ran across this from a Libertarian no doubt.
http://www.naturalnews.com/026108_free_ ... umers.html


If that's what libertarian means to you, then maybe I need a new dictionary.

Consumers are not rational!


The author needs to read "Human Action" by Ludwig Von Mises. Everyone, always makes rational choices based on the information they have and the qualities they value.

Most people don't think it's rational to store, shovel and dispose of coal ash but I think we here do. What's rational to you isn't to me. But what seems most rational to ME by definition is rational.

Would it mean anything to you if Goldman Sachs disagreed with you?

http://bastiat.mises.org/2014/06/ecuado ... man-sachs/

While gold seems to mostly flow from west to east these days, some of it apparently still flows south to north, according to Bloomberg. And it flows directly from Ecuador’s central bank into the coffers of Goldman Sachs.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:24 pm

I didn't call him a libertarian jpete, he called himself one. To me all parties have some good thoughts as do all people, you can learn something from darn near anyone. I don't consider myself to be above someone that plows or feeds cattle or cows if you wish, without them you wouldn't have much choice in a supermarket, we all share this earth none no all that much different than the other if you don't consider yourself superior you might be amazed at what you don't know.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:36 pm

samhill wrote:I didn't call him a libertarian jpete, he called himself one. To me all parties have some good thoughts as do all people, you can learn something from darn near anyone. I don't consider myself to be above someone that plows or feeds cattle or cows if you wish, without them you wouldn't have much choice in a supermarket, we all share this earth none no all that much different than the other if you don't consider yourself superior you might be amazed at what you don't know.


You're right. You learn from anyone. Mostly I learn that you shouldn't try to debate topics you've done ZERO research on.

I don't think I'm "above" anyone. I know I spend a boat load of time reading and studying this stuff.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: The end of commerce

PostBy: samhill On: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:28 am

Well then it should be easy for you to answer about the wages earned back then, you take inflation in account for costs but why not earnings? Yourself & some others sure do make some (the way I take them) belittling remarks about what some do for a living at times.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75