Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: 2001Sierra On: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:51 pm

Are yellow volatile flames producing more BTU's than blue flames? My Keystoker when it gets going I see yellow flames unlike the big blue flames in my handfed.
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:00 am

2001Sierra wrote:Are yellow volatile flames producing more BTU's than blue flames? My Keystoker when it gets going I see yellow flames unlike the big blue flames in my hand fired.


I don't know the real >/< BTU answer for sure but I do know that when my hand fired "gets going" with the increased draft after shaking and refueling, I'll see yellow flames too. I always thought it was because the increased draft after shaking was pulling fly ash up and the minerals in the ash made the flame yellow. Maybe ... - I was participating in another thread when someone posted the color of the flame is influenced by where the combustion with the air is occurring. They stated that blue flame are created when the air combusts with the fuel at or below the fuel where yellow flames are formed when the air combusts with the fuel gasses above the fuel
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: Berlin On: Mon May 03, 2010 10:23 pm

the heavy hydrocarbons in some bituminous (kentucky and WV @ greater than 14,500btu/lb for example) and semi-anthracite (some over 15,500btu/lb) coals will allow more BTU's per weight, not necessarily volume. bituminous coals can vary considerably in density, compare pittsburgh coal to central pa kittaning or freeport coals and the pittsburgh is much heavier per volume. When we load the furnace people are always thinking in volume, but volume doesn't matter much as we're buying the energy by weight and a certain btu/lb. bear in mind that some coals produce a much higher VOLUME of ash even though they have a lower ash content (% ash is by weight).

In theory, Semi-anthracite coals and Anthracites at the higher end of the volitile scale should produce more heat and be easier to ignite and keep burning. The orange flames in the keystoker are likely incandescent particles of flyash that will glow orange and make the flames appear orange- this is a common phenomenon. As for the blue flames meaning anything? well more volitiles will encourage more visable flames, but even pure carbon produces blue flames- it's CO gas combustion.

When it comes to red ash and white ash coals, there are similar variations in bituminous coals, as well as pink, orange and everything in between. I wouldn't put too much stock in "red" or "white" ash meaning anything other than it's a symptom of the different formations of anthracite coal and thus an easy way to differentiate coals from different major fields. the fact that a coal has red ash or white ash outside of the anthracite in NEPA means little as to it's heating value and combustion characteristics.
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: Captain Michael On: Sat May 22, 2010 7:30 pm

Some of that was close and some of that was half baked. CO gas? Methane, propane, butane. Or did you invent a new gas?
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: coal berner On: Sat May 22, 2010 10:06 pm

Captain Michael wrote:This is just a thought, but it kinda makes sense in my mind. maybe one of you coal guys from NE Pa. can chime in and staighten me out on my way of thinking. Reading these posts on the forum would lead a man to believe that the best anthracite is down near the the south west edge of the deposit. I don't know the mine names but the there is a cluster of breakers on the google map in that area, including Superior and UAE. And it is no secret that the coal from those breakers are some of the best for our application. If you look at the Pa. coal maps (Google Pa.coal deposits) you will see that the south west extremity of the coal field is semi anthracite. Overlay your breaker map on the Pa coal field map and Superior and UAE amoung others are right over the semi anthracite deposit. I have stated in earliar post that I work for CNX coal. I also posted that I had last years load from superior tested and that lab said it tested as more of a semi anthracite than a high grade anthrasite. They said that it was about 90% carbon and that is on the low end grade of anthrcite. One of the guys in my office is a mineral process engineer. He spent 15 years in a coal prep plant washing coal and he knows the game, ash, btu, volatile, ect. ect. He and I have talked at lenth about burning anthracite since I starterd 3-4 years ago. I can't tell you how many times on this forum guys have talked about good coal and crappy coal. Think about this. Coal needs some volatiles to keep it burning. If our anthracite was 100% carbon you couldn't keep it lit. How many times on this forum have people commented on the blue flame immitted from thier coal fire. That blue flame is the coal burning off the volatiles. Gas is a volatile in coal. Coal contains methane, propane and butane. It is my contension that what we on these forums believe to be the good stuff is actually the low end of the anthracite spectrum. It works well in our stoves and stokers because it has enough volatiles to make it work. I surmise the stuff we complain about may be a higher grade of coal. It just does not work well for us with out the volatiles. Any opinions??

The coal your getting is in the Southern Anthracite coal field the mines are located with in 5 miles of the breaker look on the Southern field where it looks like two fish tails in the middle of the two is where the mines are .And if you think 90% carbon is low for Anthracite you should try this stuff look at what they claim
http://www.lcncoal.com/sales/index.php
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.

the Semi Anthracite fields are in the Tip of the Western Middle coal field not here in the Southren Anthracite coal field .
I think after mining coal for over 200 years that they know what kind of coal there mining .
Last edited by coal berner on Sat May 22, 2010 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: coal berner On: Sat May 22, 2010 10:21 pm

AA130FIREMAN wrote:
Richard S. wrote:What you're really discussing here is the difference between white ash and red ash.

The red ash has a higher ash content, sometimes up around 16% I think for superior. Because of the higher volatile matter it still produces a lot of heat. One of the problems is if you try and burn it too hot, you'll get clinkers.

The white ash has lower ash content, typically around 10 or 11%. As the ash content goes up with white ash the BTU's drop. I've seen some numbers where it has dropped into the 5 and 6% range. This coal is rock hard and not exactly easy to burn. It is so dense it would appear that half a ton was missing over a 5 ton load. While this is harder to burn it produces a lot of heat for a very long time once you get it roilling, the added benefit is picking up ash tubs that feel like they are filled with feathers. ;) You can get coal like that burn up to nothing but powder especially in a hand fired stove.

I picked up a lot of customers over the years that were using red ash and most preferred the white ash. Of course they weren't getting crap white ash which is a whole other ball game.

I was under the assumption the white ash gives less btu's than the red ash. And the red ash is harder, and harder to keep lit over the white ash. Tamaqua north east to scranton is harder/red ash and west is softer white ash. OR HAVE I BEEN MISLEAD ??? :(

All of the Anthracite coal fields have White & Red ash veins The Southern the Northern an the middle east & west fields
all have Red & white ash veins of coal some of the bigger veins of coal start at the Southern tip of the Southern field and go all the way up to the farthest Northern tip field And know red ah is not harder to light Nor does it not burn long
I can light it with cardboard & Paper And in a Hand fed stove I can get 40 plus hours out of one load of coal The lower the ash content the harder it is to light and will burn up faster a lot of the coal comes out of the ground at 2 to 2.5 % ash content Guess what it does not burn good at all that's why the breakers will mix it with other coal to get the ash content up so it will burn there are several ways of doing this 1 by mixing it with a high ash content coal 2 mixing in slate & bone with the coal Remember this some veins are Just Naturally better then others and does not need anything mix with it .
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: coal berner On: Sat May 22, 2010 10:27 pm

Richard S. wrote:What you're really discussing here is the difference between white ash and red ash.

The red ash has a higher ash content, sometimes up around 16% I think for superior. Because of the higher volatile matter it still produces a lot of heat. One of the problems is if you try and burn it too hot, you'll get clinkers.

The white ash has lower ash content, typically around 10 or 11%. As the ash content goes up with white ash the BTU's drop. I've seen some numbers where it has dropped into the 5 and 6% range. This coal is rock hard and not exactly easy to burn. It is so dense it would appear that half a ton was missing over a 5 ton load. While this is harder to burn it produces a lot of heat for a very long time once you get it roilling, the added benefit is picking up ash tubs that feel like they are filled with feathers. ;) You can get coal like that burn up to nothing but powder especially in a hand fired stove.

I picked up a lot of customers over the years that were using red ash and most preferred the white ash. Of course they weren't getting crap white ash which is a whole other ball game.

Superior coal has never been 16% ash content in all the years the breaker has been there and that goes back to the early 30's 14 % is the highest that will ever come out of there 12.5% is the normal and if the one mine that use to provide 1/3 of the coal to the breaker was still open the ash would be 8 to 10% like it use to be . UAE is 7 to 7.5 % Red ash coal Lykns # 2 vein only .
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: coal berner On: Sat May 22, 2010 10:32 pm

Captain Michael wrote:Some of that was close and some of that was half baked. CO gas? Methane, propane, butane. Or did you invent a new gas?

Anthracite coal
Composition
Primary carbon
Secondary sulfur,
hydrogen,
oxygen,
nitrogen
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: coal berner On: Sat May 22, 2010 10:34 pm

Captain Michael wrote:This is just a thought, but it kinda makes sense in my mind. maybe one of you coal guys from NE Pa. can chime in and staighten me out on my way of thinking. Reading these posts on the forum would lead a man to believe that the best anthracite is down near the the south west edge of the deposit. I don't know the mine names but the there is a cluster of breakers on the google map in that area, including Superior and UAE. And it is no secret that the coal from those breakers are some of the best for our application. If you look at the Pa. coal maps (Google Pa.coal deposits) you will see that the south west extremity of the coal field is semi anthracite. Overlay your breaker map on the Pa coal field map and Superior and UAE amoung others are right over the semi anthracite deposit. I have stated in earliar post that I work for CNX coal. I also posted that I had last years load from superior tested and that lab said it tested as more of a semi anthracite than a high grade anthrasite. They said that it was about 90% carbon and that is on the low end grade of anthrcite. One of the guys in my office is a mineral process engineer. He spent 15 years in a coal prep plant washing coal and he knows the game, ash, btu, volatile, ect. ect. He and I have talked at lenth about burning anthracite since I starterd 3-4 years ago. I can't tell you how many times on this forum guys have talked about good coal and crappy coal. Think about this. Coal needs some volatiles to keep it burning. If our anthracite was 100% carbon you couldn't keep it lit. How many times on this forum have people commented on the blue flame immitted from thier coal fire. That blue flame is the coal burning off the volatiles. Gas is a volatile in coal. Coal contains methane, propane and butane. It is my contension that what we on these forums believe to be the good stuff is actually the low end of the anthracite spectrum. It works well in our stoves and stokers because it has enough volatiles to make it work. I surmise the stuff we complain about may be a higher grade of coal. It just does not work well for us with out the volatiles. Any opinions??

So 90% carbon is low for Anthracite Umm.

Name Volatiles % C Carbon % H Hydrogen % O Oxygen % S Sulfur % Heat content kJ/kg
Braunkohle (Lignite) 45-65 60-75 6.0-5.8 34-17 0.5-3 <28470
Flammkohle (Flame coal) 40-45 75-82 6.0-5.8 >9.8 ~1 <32870
Gasflammkohle (Gas flame coal) 35-40 82-85 5.8-5.6 9.8-7.3 ~1 <33910
Gaskohle (Gas coal) 28-35 85-87.5 5.6-5.0 7.3-4.5 ~1 <34960
Fettkohle (Fat coal) 19-28 87.5-89.5 5.0-4.5 4.5-3.2 ~1 <35380
Esskohle (Forge coal) 14-19 89.5-90.5 4.5-4.0 3.2-2.8 ~1 <35380
Magerkohle (Non baking coal) 10-14 90.5-91.5 4.0-3.75 2.8-3.5 ~1 35380
Anthrazit (Anthracite) 7-12 >91.5 <3.75 <2.5 ~1 <35300
Percent by weight
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: coal berner On: Sat May 22, 2010 10:59 pm

It seems some of us need to do more home work to know the difference between the 4 types coal and where they are located and which ones are mined in PA. Look at the second link it shows the small Semi Anthracite coal field in the Western Middle coal field at the very Tip of the field not even mined .
and two very small semi field in the most Southern part of the Southern filed again not even mined

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/topogeo/edu ... al/es7.pdf

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/topogeo/maps/map11.pdf
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: brckwlt On: Sat May 22, 2010 11:39 pm

thanx
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: Captain Michael On: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:49 pm

Hey guys I been away for awile. its been way to nice outside to be online in the summer. Back to this conversation. I ask the question because I was curious about all this stuff. I do want to say to coal berner that you are wrong about superiors ash never being above 14%. I had it tested in a lab that does nothing but test coal 24 / 7 / 365. It tested 15% That lab belongs to the largest underground coal mining company in the USA. I have access to any number of mining engineers, mineral process engineers and a whole traunche of others educated in places like the Colorado school of mining or WVU. If you have a question, send it to me and I will ask one of these guys. I may not really understand the answer but I will bring it back for you. I did not mean to offend anyone, I just love to hear all sides of issues and stir people into spirited thought.
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: Captain Michael On: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:56 pm

It looks like you copied that right out of a book. Some of those are variants of the same class of coal. How about
Peat
Subteranian
Bituminous
Anthracite
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: coal berner On: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:51 pm

Captain Michael wrote:Hey guys I been away for awile. its been way to nice outside to be online in the summer. Back to this conversation. I ask the question because I was curious about all this stuff. I do want to say to coal berner that you are wrong about superiors ash never being above 14%. I had it tested in a lab that does nothing but test coal 24 / 7 / 365. It tested 15% That lab belongs to the largest underground coal mining company in the USA. I have access to any number of mining engineers, mineral process engineers and a whole traunche of others educated in places like the Colorado school of mining or WVU. If you have a question, send it to me and I will ask one of these guys. I may not really understand the answer but I will bring it back for you. I did not mean to offend anyone, I just love to hear all sides of issues and stir people into spirited thought.

Superior has there own testing lab right at the breaker like most of the bigger breaker do they test daily take it up with them . Also being most of there coal is coming from surface mines and not there underground mines being there closed right now the ash will and can change on a weekly basis or even daily
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Re: Maybe the bad stuff is the good stuff?? Semi Anthracite.

PostBy: snuffy On: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:23 pm

Coal Berner,

Excellent reference source. Dashed my hopes for $35.00/ton coal, though.
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