Calling all Electricians!!!!

Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: Hunlock On: Mon May 17, 2010 8:55 am

Hi

I am upgrading to a 200amp service, and have a question or two(maybe more)....

The run from the outside of my house, inside to the panel will be greater than 5'. NEC says I need an external disconnect, unless I move the panel to within 5'. Doable, but I would rather not have 15' of additional conduit running the length of my house..

My first question:

If I have an external disconnect, would that now be considered my "main", since it is the first after the meter? If this is true, would all of my bonding need to take place at this disconnect, and then use 3+ground from disconnect to 200amp panel? I really don't have a lot of money to deal with here, due to the baby and all, so I want to make sure I get this right the first time. The NEC just confuses me sometimes!!!

Any help would be awesome!!!!

Thanks

Tim
Hunlock
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hyfire II

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Mon May 17, 2010 9:43 am

I am not an electrician but I have installed some meter heads . One in an apartment had a 6 gang meter head to 6, 100amp breaker pannels. I know the distance they wanted was 3' from the meter to the breaker box. The distance had to be over 10 feet because of adding an additional breaker box. The inspector allowed it, he said the meters were the main pannel and I did not have to run the supply in conduet. And as far as the ground rod, now they want 2, I believe at least 6' appart,not to a water line or well. Electric code is always changing, I here their is something new where the switches have low voltage untill something is pluged in. CALL THE COMPANY that does the inspection and ask questions, codes may change from town to town.
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: Hunlock On: Mon May 17, 2010 12:11 pm

AA130FIREMAN wrote:I am not an electrician but I have installed some meter heads . One in an apartment had a 6 gang meter head to 6, 100amp breaker pannels. I know the distance they wanted was 3' from the meter to the breaker box. The distance had to be over 10 feet because of adding an additional breaker box. The inspector allowed it, he said the meters were the main pannel and I did not have to run the supply in conduet. And as far as the ground rod, now they want 2, I believe at least 6' appart,not to a water line or well. Electric code is always changing, I here their is something new where the switches have low voltage untill something is pluged in. CALL THE COMPANY that does the inspection and ask questions, codes may change from town to town.


You want to hear a good one???

I called the company that inspects my local twp....Inspector said: "Don't worry about it being wrong. I'll let you know what's wrong, then I can come back and re-inspect."..

:mad:
Hunlock
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hyfire II


Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Mon May 17, 2010 1:00 pm

I have gone threw a couple inspections for new service, the same man came for them, nice down to earth fellow. I had a booboo the first one(wires backwards for the meter head, make it run backwards :D ) he came back to reinspect when he was in town,no extra charge. When I asked about the ground rod, they told me they check with an ohm meter, the inspector never checked, he said it changes day to day with rain.
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: JB Sparks On: Mon May 17, 2010 6:55 pm

Humlock, If your tight for money, why do you want to up-grade to 200 amps? As of the 2008 code there is no more restriction on the number of breakers on a 100 amp service. If you need more circuits just add a subpanel.

I guess I should ask first, do you have a 100 amp service now with a circuit breaker panel ( no fuses)?
JB Sparks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman - Chubby
Stove/Furnace Model: Harman: SF160 - Chubby Sr.

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: Hunlock On: Mon May 17, 2010 7:03 pm

JB Sparks wrote:Humlock, If your tight for money, why do you want to up-grade to 200 amps? As of the 2008 code there is no more restriction on the number of breakers on a 100 amp service. If you need more circuits just add a subpanel.

I guess I should ask first, do you have a 100 amp service now with a circuit breaker panel ( no fuses)?



60 amp fuses....... ;)

I have the panel, breakers, and conduit. have enough cash in hand for wire, grounding rods, meterbase and disconnect. I don't have the cash to do this twice if I am wrong...Or two or three inspections...
Hunlock
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hyfire II

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: JB Sparks On: Mon May 17, 2010 7:25 pm

Hunlock wrote:60 amp fuses.......
Yup, change it out. To bad ya bought all the equipment before you asked. Probably could have done a load calc. and found a 100 amp would have been good. Bottom line, if your cable run is across the cellar like you mentioned get a meter socket with a main breaker run the "SER" cable to the panel. Now, because your meter socket has the main breaker in it, this means your panel will be classified as a subpanel which means you have to have a ground bar mounted in the panel and all the ground wires tie into that. You also don't ground the nuetral bar to the panel box, keep it isolated from the ground wires. And yup, two ground rods, 6' apart. the wire from the metersocket to the ground rods will be # 6 copper. The wire from the panel ground bar to the water pipe system has to be # 2 copper for a 200 amp service. I assume your using # 4/0 aluminum for your service entrance wires and don't forget to use Nolocks (electrolis inhibitor) (sp) at all connections of aluminum wire.
JB Sparks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman - Chubby
Stove/Furnace Model: Harman: SF160 - Chubby Sr.

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: Hunlock On: Mon May 17, 2010 8:01 pm

JB Sparks wrote:
Hunlock wrote:60 amp fuses.......
Yup, change it out. To bad ya bought all the equipment before you asked. Probably could have done a load calc. and found a 100 amp would have been good. Bottom line, if your cable run is across the cellar like you mentioned get a meter socket with a main breaker run the "SER" cable to the panel. Now, because your meter socket has the main breaker in it, this means your panel will be classified as a subpanel which means you have to have a ground bar mounted in the panel and all the ground wires tie into that. You also don't ground the nuetral bar to the panel box, keep it isolated from the ground wires. And yup, two ground rods, 6' apart. the wire from the metersocket to the ground rods will be # 6 copper. The wire from the panel ground bar to the water pipe system has to be # 2 copper for a 200 amp service. I assume your using # 4/0 aluminum for your service entrance wires and don't forget to use Nolocks (electrolis inhibitor) (sp) at all connections of aluminum wire.


The reason for the 200 amp main: VERY old home, with old knob and tube upstairs. I rain a feeder up to a 2nd floor closet, and have a 60 amp subpanel there, with ALL the wiring for the upstairs, including some aux electric baseboard heaters. And I have three otbuildings, two of which Iam running power to. So, I think the 200 amp is warranted.

You helped me out a whole bunch!!!!

But, still have a question or two.

Since my 200amp will be considered a sub panel, wouldn't the ground be tied to the MAIN(meter/disco), and not need it's own ground? I thought that if the subpanel is in the same building as the main, it would be grounded to it's main? An outside building would have its own ground?

Also, I am on a well system here with no metal pipe leaving the building...What to do now????

Thanks so much, you have been a HUGE help.

Sorry for all of the questions.
Hunlock
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hyfire II

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: JB Sparks On: Mon May 17, 2010 8:28 pm

All your panels will be subpanels therefore all the branch circuits coming into any of your panels will need to keep the ground wires separate from the nuetral wires so each panel must have it's own ground bar and the nuetral bar isolated from the panel cabinet. Also note that on the nuetral bar only one wire per hole and you are allowed two wires per hole on the ground bar.

From the metersocket to your panel you will have 4 wires ( 2 hot legs, 1 nuetral, and one ground). the ground wire goes from the metersocket ground connection to the panel ground bar. The only place the grounds and the nuetrals come together will be at the metersocket/main breaker box everywhere else you keep them separate.

The # 2 ground to you water pipe system can be grounded anywhere in the system however you should try to attach to the biggest pipe in the system. Some inspectors require this some do not. Use the appropriate ground clamp on the water pipe and on the ground bars, they are different clamps for each use. If you are going to pipe the ground wire to the water pipe make sure you use pvc pipe.

Understand your reasons for a 200 amp service. I agree.

If you have any knob and tube wiring in your house make sure the wires stay in free air ( no insulation around them). If there is insulation you really should change out the wiring to romex wiring. Knob and tube wiring is designed to radiate heat into free air if it can't that's when wires get too hot and wire insulatation dries up and falls off and then things go from bad to worse.

BTW when mountng the metersocket, the meter should be around eye level ( not too high & not too low).
JB Sparks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman - Chubby
Stove/Furnace Model: Harman: SF160 - Chubby Sr.

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: Hunlock On: Mon May 17, 2010 9:24 pm

JB,

Crystal Clear!!!!

Thank You!

This helps out a ton!

Tim
Hunlock
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hyfire II

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: 009to090 On: Mon May 17, 2010 9:54 pm

JB Sparks wrote:The # 2 ground to you water pipe system can be grounded anywhere in the system however you should try to attach to the biggest pipe in the system.

Nice write-up Jeff. I would just add that I had to bond the cold water pipe to the hot water pipe over the hotwater heater, if this system has one.
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: Hunlock On: Mon May 17, 2010 10:04 pm

DVC500 at last wrote:
JB Sparks wrote:The # 2 ground to you water pipe system can be grounded anywhere in the system however you should try to attach to the biggest pipe in the system.

Nice write-up Jeff. I would just add that I had to bond the cold water pipe to the hot water pipe over the hotwater heater, if this system has one.


This was a FANTASTIC write up! I got myself confused, anf Jeff straightened me out quick!..lol


Thanks for the added tip of bonding....
Hunlock
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hyfire II

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon May 17, 2010 11:39 pm

If your outbuilding will have subpanels be sure to run four wires to them also. Do not install additional earth grounding rods at the outbuildings. If you have multiple earth connections in a system, during a lighting strike large currents are induced in the grounds which causes excessive voltages, which in turn burns out most electronics. I had quite a problem with cable modems burning out because my cable company didn't understand the current flows during a lighting strike.

All electrical devices that are connected to neutral or safety ground should share the same ground at the power meter. Ideally this means your cable TV or satellite TV cable should enter your home at the same physical place as you electric power and be grounded there. When this is not possible the ground for the TV service should be independently run to the meter panel ground point. I have a IEEE grounding tutorial that explains it all. You can download the tutorial here:

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: JB Sparks On: Tue May 18, 2010 6:22 am

Right on Yanche, The new code requires that a bonding means located at and outside the metersocket be provided for grounding of the cable tv and tel interfaces. the cheapest way I found was to use a short grounding bar that comes with it's own mounting angle bracket and mounted it right beside the socket.

sorry Hunlock, I forgot to mention that, us old timers kid each other everytime we forget something by saying " You can't think of everything"!! That and we would say if I carried everything on the truck that I needed I would be driving a tractor-trailer.

BTW haven't mentioned it on this site yet but, the wife and I have decided that it is time for me to hang it up. I told the contractors I do work for that I will finish up the projects we have going but that will be it, start looking for another electrician. Now maybe I can get our kitchen remodel completed that I started a year ago this month and at best is only half done.

Good luck on the service change Hunlock, while you are doing the work and you get stuck on something just give a shout and we'll be happy to bail you out.

Jeff
JB Sparks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman - Chubby
Stove/Furnace Model: Harman: SF160 - Chubby Sr.

Re: Calling all Electricians!!!!

PostBy: JB Sparks On: Tue May 18, 2010 6:30 am

Hey Chris, how are you? Yup you are right, the entire water piping system in the house needs to be bonded together and to the electrical grounding system at the main disconnecting means. So if the hot and cold pipes are somehow isolated from each other a simple jumper connection between them is required, just remember to use the proper size wire ( # 6 copper for a 100 amp service and # 2 copper for a 200 amp service.

Jeff
JB Sparks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman - Chubby
Stove/Furnace Model: Harman: SF160 - Chubby Sr.