Well System Air

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Dann757
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Post by Dann757 » Mon. Jun. 21, 2010 10:27 am

I'm asking for a friend. This family lost their father suddenly ten years ago, they're pretty much helpless. They have a house in North Jersey, where the water is acidic. I don't think that has anything to do with this situation though.
They had water softening equipment installed quite a while ago, one time I looked in their furnace room where the well tank is, the salt bin was full of water. They are just clueless about mechanical things.

Problem now is, when you turn the water on at say the kitchen faucet, the water flow is interrupted by burps and belches of air. If you run the water for a while it seems to have less air coming out. Somebody told them it's their well tank.
I want to at least diagnose this for them. Pretty sure it's a submersible pump.
How could air be getting introduced into a well system like this? It's like an empty garden hose when you first start using it, spits and sputters.

thanks in advance

Dan

 
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VigIIPeaBurner
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Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Mon. Jun. 21, 2010 11:37 am

Dann757 wrote:... 8<
They had water softening equipment installed quite a while ago, one time I looked in their furnace room where the well tank is, the salt bin was full of water. They are just clueless about mechanical things.
>8...
Dan
The softener systems I'm familiar with have a venturi jet system that produces the negative pressure to pull the brine out of the tank. The brine is created when water is allowed back into the tank during part of the regeneration cycle. It's pulled out of the tank during the 'brining' part of the cycle that occurs near the middle. If the brine tank has more than ~8"(rough guess measurement) of brine in the bottom of the salt tank, a few possibilities come to mind.
  • The suction jet system is dirty. There should be a screen before the jet. The screen and jet assembly should be removable. Clean all lines to the brine tk., lube all O-rings with silicone grease and reassemble. The brine tank needs occasional cleaning too. There's more "dirt" in solar salt which will accumulate in the bottom of the salt/brine tank more quickly than if the cleaner white pellets are used.
  • There could be a problem in the control head allowing more water into the brine tank than usual. Could be caused by a dry O-ring or worn head surfaces. If it's a dry ring, grease it with silicone grease
Dann757 wrote:8<...

Problem now is, when you turn the water on at say the kitchen faucet, the water flow is interrupted by burps and belches of air. If you run the water for a while it seems to have less air coming out. Somebody told them it's their well tank.
I want to at least diagnose this for them. Pretty sure it's a submersible pump.
How could air be getting introduced into a well system like this? It's like an empty garden hose when you first start using it, spits and sputters.

thanks in advance

Dan
Problem could be in the line before the tank. Maybe the foot valve? If it was the well tank, the water pressure would swing rapidly and the well pump would run every time water is used. I don't have a lot of hands on experience on this problem.

 
Dann757
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Post by Dann757 » Mon. Jun. 21, 2010 6:59 pm

Thanks for taking the time to respond! Very good info on the well tank situation. Probably something with the softener set up. I don't know why they put in a softener when I think they need a neutralizer. This family is like prey animals, easy marks for unscrupulus plumbers.


 
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SMITTY
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Post by SMITTY » Mon. Jun. 21, 2010 7:03 pm

A couple more possibilities: The pump could be sucking air due to a drop in the water table, or a busted connection somewhere in the run ..... or a ruptured diaphragm in the pressure tank. But usually when you lose air pressure due to a ruptured diaphragm, it will be accompanied by severe short-cycling of the pump.

 
Dann757
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Post by Dann757 » Mon. Jun. 21, 2010 7:17 pm

Thanks Smitty-- I was thinking of you today when I was trying to scrub black carbon off the firebricks of that old Sears Kenmore barrell coal stove I got. I had 'em all sitting on my truck tool box, which is on the ground. I tried EZ- Off oven cleaner, then I tried concrete stain remover. I think it's some kind of bleach. Then I tried ammonia. But the thing is, the scrub brush I was using was spattering all these chemicals on my shins hahahhahaha. By the way- the bike tank looks awesome.

And that's what I was thinking also, possibility the foot valve is sucking air. My buddy's mom freaks out man, that whole family needs an exorcism.

 
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VigIIPeaBurner
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Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Mon. Jun. 21, 2010 10:01 pm

Dann757 wrote:Thanks for taking the time to respond! Very good info on the well tank situation. Probably something with the softener set up. I don't know why they put in a softener when I think they need a neutralizer. This family is like prey animals, easy marks for unscrupulus plumbers.
There is a lot of prey out there! Some of this knowledge isn't so 'common' knowledge.

There's two main types of ground water in Northern NJ: 1-hard or high lime content and 2-acidic water. Either one can benefit from a softener.
  • #1 just because it's naturally hard.
  • #2 if there's a neutralizer in place. Some neutralizers are piggy-backed twin stacked tanks were the top tank is the neutralizer (will have a ~3" plug for adding limestone) and the bottom tank does the softening. The top tank raises the pH by adding "limestone" and then the dissolved "limestone" to soften the hardened water leaving it with a higher pH.


 
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Post by 009to090 » Tue. Jun. 22, 2010 5:26 pm

Last year, I pulled the deep well pump and riser pipe (Iron) out of my 186Ft well, the iron pipe was corroded clean thru in spots, and was pumping water out of the multiple pin holes, then sucking air back in, when the pressure tank was full. I replaced the old iron pipe with black plastic, and installed a new pump. Also, the horizontal run of iron pipe from the well head to the basement pressure tank had multiple pin holes. Had to replace this also.
If the pressure tank itsself has gone south, you would see more drastic symtoms than just air at the faucet.

 
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Post by nortcan » Tue. Jun. 22, 2010 8:09 pm

Hi Dan 757.
The water can be acidic and also hard. A water testing can be easily perform to know the physico-chemical property of that water and see if a water softner is needed. The brine drum (salt bin) is not supposed to be full of water.Some water softners control the water level with a float syst. and others control it with a salt control device, like a cam. Excessive water in the brine tank may depend of: plugged drain line flow control, plugged injector assy, foreing material in brine valve or foreing material in brine line flow control. would be easier to help if you can give us the name of the water softner.
For the air in the faucets, do you have a pressure gauge at the water tank? If so, let all faucets closed and see if the pressure remains at the same reading or if it is going down , the pressure should remains the same if ALL the faucets, the toilet and all the other water outlets are closed. A pressure gauge is a must on a water system. If the pressure goes gown in that case, the water is returning to the well. A simple first try is to install a check valve between the well pipe and the water tank. Then, if the pressure stops to go down, it's O.K., if it still goes down, there is a leak somewhere from the tank to your well.
Hope it will help.
nortcan

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