Installation Plans for the Gentleman Janitor

Installation Plans for the Gentleman Janitor

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:37 am

Well I have a new project. :shock:

As some of you know, last year I heated the whole house with an Alaska old school Tri-burner stove (in the kitchen on the first floor), controlled by a Coal-Trol. It was my first year of coal burning, and now I'm hooked. So for next year I figured I would move to the basement and make the step up to a Coal Boiler.

After some planning and a little sweat I am the proud owner of a newly liberated Gentleman Janitor boiler with a 17" burn pot and underfeed stoker.

Currently in the process of tear down and rebuild. So I though you might like a few "before" pics for your amusement! :lol:
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A new arrival fresh from basement extraction
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Burn Pot and part of the Auger
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After some tapping and prying!
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Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:53 am

And here are a couple more pics and the plans for an automated coal bin. The next item for the drawing board is an ash removal system.

Guess it will never end! :roll:
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Off comes the top
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Not too bad considering it was under water for a day!
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Plan for coal delivery automation
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Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:29 am

I get to razz you again about your coal bin design. :lol: J/K

You need about a 45 degree angle, otherwise the slope isn't doing much more than taking up space. If you have a really deep basement your in business. I have a customer with a 12 foot or higher basement that did similar to what you have drawn but he had the height to do it with a 45 degree angle. The major issue is that once the coal is removed from directly above the worm you have to stack quite a bit on it. Basically you need two shovels full of coal to get one shovel full that the worm will use.

Whether you leave it sloped or take the slope out of your design I'd suggest working a 55 gallon drum into your plans or something similar. Cut a hole in the bottom and place it on a pedestal a foot or two above the worm. The pedestal will allow all the coal that can be gravity feed to still flow to the worm. Once you get low you can shovel it into the barrel. You can get more than 400 pounds in a 55 gallon drum, with the space below it you're up to about 500 pounds.

Edit: I see you have a 55 gallon drum on the trailer. My suggestion would be to scrap the slope idea and see how using just the barrel works out for you. Maybe even consider digging a small section of the basement up where the worm enters and create a concrete hopper a foot or two below floor level? That depends on if you can adjust the angle of the worm. Whatever the case the lower you can the better off you are.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite


PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:14 am

Congratulations, on your find. It will certainly be a worthwhile summer project. After looking at your piping schematic I've got a couple of suggestions. The circulating pumps should always be on the supply side of the boiler. I know that's not the way a lot of boiler instruction manuals have historically shown them but it's plain wrong. A circulating pump has lower pressure on its input side than its output side. By placing the pump on the supply side you are lowering the pressure on the boiler. Trapped gases, primarily O2, in the boiler water are more easily released where the water is the hottest and the pressure is the lowest. This is at the top of the boiler. There should be three items in series coming off the supply tapping. A horizontal pipe at least three feet long, a shut off valve, the air trap, followed by the pump. The three foot pipe run will encourage liberated gases to float to the top of the pipe where it can be removed by the air trap. The valve is used for two purposes, initial air removal and pump isolation. Obviously a second valve is needed on the output side of the pump to make removal of the pump possible without draining the system.

A second advantage of the pump on the supply side of the boiler is that it reduces boiler pressure when running, making the safety pressure valve less likely to open. When the pump is on the return side it increases boiler pressure.

There should be a hose drain connection at the very top of the boiler supply tapping. During initial system water fill the valve in front of the air trap is closed and the hose drain opened. Fill water enters the bottom of the air trap circulates through the entire heat distribution system, through the boiler and out the open valve at the top of the boiler. All the air in the system will be purged, just like when you attached an empty garden hose to a faucet. The air bubbles will just gurgle out. This design will remove all trapped air. There is no need for other air vents. There are additional valves needed in a zoned system, so that air is forced out in turn in each zone.

I see you have many isolation valves. You will need multiple expansion tanks. One for each boiler you plan to isolate. Just think through the expansion or contraction of the water with the isolation valves open or closed. Be sure closing a valve doesn't also close off a path to the expansion tank. If you have a zoned system you will need flow check valves in the zone returns. Good luck with your boiler.

Yanche
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:37 am

The pump manufacturers want the pump on the return side just prior to the boiler as it lowers the operating temperature and increases the pumps life considerably.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

PostBy: europachris On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:08 am

Wow, Matthaus, you're a magnet for the "land of the forgotten coal stoves/boilers". You've got quite the project there - I thought the Keystoker you sold me was going to take a lot of work!

That's going to be a nice setup when it's all rehabilitated and installed. Fixing up old, neglected mechanical things and making them look and work like new again is one of the things in life I really enjoy doing.

Have you done a pressure check on the boiler to make sure it doesn't have any leaks?

Keep us updated over the summer of your progress. I'm sure the list will be a little slow once it warms up.

Chris
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:37 am

NEPAForum Admin wrote:I get to razz you again about your coal bin design. :lol: J/K

You need about a 45 degree angle, otherwise the slope isn't doing much more than taking up space.....


Thanks Richard! I knew my plan was frought with opportunity for learning! I will make a revised drawing and post it for comments, I appreciate you taking the time to help me learn. :)
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:45 am

Yanche wrote:.... After looking at your piping schematic I've got a couple of suggestions. The circulating pumps should always be on the supply side of the boiler. .......
Yanche


Thanks Yanche, I did draw the circ pump on the supply side, even though my current installation of the gas boiler has it on the return. Will E-mail you with a PPT file that is easier to see, the .jpg got a little fuzzy. I do have the circ pump for the domestic HW on the return side though, I have always done that, even on my solar system install in the 80's in Florida. Not sure if that is the best set up or not, would be interested to hear your comments on that.

I also forgot to draw in the hose bibs for bleeding the system on the loop, they are there on the old installation.

Will clean everything up and post again. Thanks for taking the time to help me learn! :)
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:52 am

coaledsweat wrote:The pump manufacturers want the pump on the return side just prior to the boiler as it lowers the operating temperature and increases the pumps life considerably.


Hi Ian,

Yes I agree it will last longer but the Grundfos pump I have is rated for 230*F and I will only be operating at 175*F.

Thanks for the comments, keep em coming! :)
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:12 am

Let me revise that and say a 40 degree angle, it really one of those "depends". Assuming you will be using rice it needs more of an angle than the larger sizes. Being where you live i'm sure you are aware of how steep a culm bank can be, rice can at times do the same thing especially if it's dirty. If you take for example my truck with a stainless steel bed which is like a skating rink, even a few degrees pitched forward and I'll have some coal all the way to the front of the truck. The bigger the pitch the more that will be in there. Generally it will all just about fall out except the corners on flat ground.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

PostBy: Matthaus On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:19 am

europachris wrote:Have you done a pressure check on the boiler to make sure it doesn't have any leaks?
Chris


Yes already hydrostated the unit to 35 psig, passed with flying colors. The unit was in a house that was flooded for a few hours, the basement was under water for half a day. So far the inspection shows a pretty healthy unit with only a good cleaning (read that as sandblast and paint!) and reassembly required.

Of course I will replace the Watts valve and other safety items to make sure it will be safe.

Looks like this project makes my stove rehab projects look like childs play! :lol:

I have been watching your progress with the keystoker with joy to see the unit being made like new! :thumbleft:
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:06 pm

coaledsweat wrote:The pump manufacturers want the pump on the return side just prior to the boiler as it lowers the operating temperature and increases the pumps life considerably.
That's was the thinking decades ago but all residential boiler manufactures now recommend the pump on the supply side for the reasons I outlined. Taco, B&G and Grundfos agree. The seals in modern pumps can easily "take the heat". Only the old time plumbers complain because it's not the way they have always done it.

Yanche
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

PostBy: gaw On: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:49 am

Yanche wrote:The circulating pumps should always be on the supply side of the boiler. I know that's not the way a lot of boiler instruction manuals have historically shown them but it's plain wrong.

Yanche


I don’t think I would call the old way of doing things wrong! Maybe obsolete, technology is always changing and I’m sure they had good reasons for doing it that way in the past.

Have you considered a simple dog box entry to feed your auger from the coal bin? No moving parts involved and it will allow you to service the auger no mater how full the coal bin is.

I apologize for not being good at reading blueprints but I don’t think I see a boiler bypass in your plan. Many also put a balancing valve in the bypass.

Did you get a timer with the boiler and do you know if they use an aquastat to force the circulator on in case of an overheat situation.

Good luck and have fun with the project.
gaw
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice from Schuylkill County

PostBy: Matthaus On: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:38 am

gaw wrote:Have you considered a simple dog box entry to feed your auger from the coal bin? No moving parts involved and it will allow you to service the auger no mater how full the coal bin is.


I was curious about what you meant by dog box entry since I have never heard that term. Could you describe it further, the power door with access panel was my attempt at secluding the auger for service.

Thanks for your other comments gaw, take it easy on Yanche :lol: , he is all for the new and smart ways of doing things.

I still have to investigate the part number of the aquastat that came with the boiler to see how it functions. Also the bypass with a balancing valve are not in the current piping schematic but worthy of consideration. The installation where I removed the boileer had that set up, and since I do not understand exactly how it works I had not drawn it in yet.
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Buckwheat Anthracite

PostBy: gaw On: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:28 pm

A dog box would be like a small tunnel maybe 18”-24” high by about 18” wide extending 2’-3’ into the coal bin at floor level. This box has no back wall. You can insert or remove your auger at this point should the need arise. Maybe you heard of this setup by another name. “Dog box” is the term I’ve always heard used to describe it, could be a local thing though. If I had the time to learn to use a cad program I could draw one but….. I hope the explanation is clear enough.

The bypass is to allow cool return water to bypass the boiler and mix with the hot water out to the baseboard or radiators. This keeps the boiler from giving up all of its heat at once which would cause a drop below the low limit of the triple aquastat and this in turn would shut of your circulator until the low limit was satisfied. With a balancing valve you can regulate the water flow in the bypass line. If you constantly loose heat in the boiler causing the circulator to shut off you need more bypass, if you go the other way and the stoker shuts off constantly because the upper limit is reached while the circulator is running you may want to decrease bypass flow. The idea is to have the stoker and circulator running together most of the time and only a gradual fluctuation on your boiler temps.

The aquastat I refer to would be in addition to the triple aquastat in the boiler. This would be located in a T fitting above the boiler in the hot outlet pipe. This is usually set at about 220 degrees. If the boiler overheats it turns the circulator on to dissipate the heat from the boiler. This would probably only happen in the summertime and if all is setup right it should not happen at all.

Hope this helps.
gaw
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Coal Size/Type: Rice from Schuylkill County