8-28

Re: 8-28

PostBy: Cap On: Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:54 pm

It was a long day. I arrived at about 0930. Locked my bicycle to a tree. Originall set up behing the stage on the steps but shortly reallized this wasn't a good spot to see the stage. Moved down to the left side of the reflecting pool about ......this far from the action. See images. I was hoping for a little more political content but for many reasons which I am not sure, GB turned it into a religious revival. But I think we all knew why we were there as did he.
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:02 pm

Nice pics! The turnout just shows how many people really are pissed off about what is happening in D.C. politics these days. There is probably at least that many that were unable to attend.

I'm not a big religious guy, but religion keeps people in check -- and that is precisely where this country has gone wrong. Once people began to say "I can cheat this guy out of money, & God won't punish me!", that was the beginning of the end. Now look at the mess we're in. The fear of God kept people in line. That we desperately need right now.
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:17 pm

SMITTY wrote:The fear of God kept people in line.

You will be pleased to know that another well-respected writer agrees with you:
"Sovereignties, in particular, possess strength, unity, stability, only to the degree to which they are sanctified by religion."
-- Niccolo Machiavelli
-- "The Prince"
I'm hoping Glenn Beck, the new Mr. Religion, will give me more leeway than the Pope has. Based on Glenn's history of divorce, alcoholism, and drug addiction, it's a pretty safe bet that he will. Except in the area of pedophilia, where the Pope has the edge. So, yeah, bring it on, Glenn, more religion is what we need!
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:02 pm

rberq wrote:So, yeah, bring it on, Glenn, more religion is what we need!


I don't think you would deny that we could do with more morality and ethics inspired by religion or any other way. Even Saint Augustine called his book "Confessions", so sinners can reform.

There is hope for you.
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:35 am

rberq wrote:I'm hoping Glenn Beck, the new Mr. Religion, will give me more leeway than the Pope has. Based on Glenn's history of divorce, alcoholism, and drug addiction, it's a pretty safe bet that he will. Except in the area of pedophilia, where the Pope has the edge. So, yeah, bring it on, Glenn, more religion is what we need!


It's an obvious and a real shame that you haven't ever listened to Beck yourself. If you had and I mean listened, not just heard the words, you would have caught on that it's not the religion, it's returning to whatever base formed your character, your sense of integrity, your honor. In this country that happens - for the most part - to be a Judo Christian religion but it could have been any of number of things that taught you right from wrong and built your character. Religion is a part of it but it's by no means all of it. I was on the mall, I saw people from every religious background and I talked to a few of them. They were there because they understood something has to be done and for them returning to their base is returning to God and their religion. What are your beliefs, what is your base? What taught you to "do what's right even when no one is looking." That's what we have to get back to.

Accept if or not - this country is at a turning point. We've come to a time where there are two sets of laws, one for us and one for the "elites." To a place where legalized theft in the form of "redistribution" is sanctioned and celebrated. To a place where individual rights don't matter and will be stomped on because "we need to be taken care of." We need men and women who are willing to stand up and say, "I'm not going to take it anymore" regardless of their religious background or lack of one. We need men and women with honor to take a stand for right, just because it's the right thing to do.

Are you one of those individuals who will speak out for right or are you just going to sit on the sidelines and stew because your beliefs are left out of the discussion by name? Because you beliefs are overshadowed by the majority. The decision is yours to make but recognize "evil only exists where good men do nothing to prevent it."

Lisa
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: pvolcko On: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:02 am

I need someone who "gets" what Beck is doing lately to help me out.

I'm a Glenn Beck fan, have been for a number of years now, but the degree to which he has been weaving religion into his presentation is becoming off putting to me. I'm no anti-religious bigot. I was raised Catholic, my family is Catholic and different people practice to different degrees. I appreciate religious belief and the benefits it can bring to an individual, even though I haven't been able to get into it myself.

I'm all for allowing and accommodating (to a certain extent) prayer in the public square, allowing a moment for prayer or bible/torah/koran/etc. study in schools, etc. We should accommodate and absolutely be willing to listen to people of faith in the public debate called politics. But I start to chafe when people of faith begin to claim we should do something because of their faith or because the faith is shared by so many or whathaveyou, without providing a good secular, logical basis for the proposal too. Beck is risking falling into this trap, if not in actuality then certainly by perception.

For instance, what exactly was the point of the 8/28 rally? To restore honor. Honor to what? Ourselves? Not really, presumably he expected people of honor to be showing up and people of honor to be his listenership. What he wants to restore honor too is the national body politic, but for some reason he wouldn't simply say that, because it would be "too political". So without a secular political focus available to his rally, he instead holds a sort of mega religious revival. He and every speaker praised and honored God. There was an effort to honor the heroes amongst us, be they military or civilian. There was an effort to honor the past, both for its traditional values now claimed to be lost and for the sacrifices of those who risked life and limb to give us each next day in freedom.

What else was done?

Maybe this was just a beginning to some broader effort, but at some point it has to be turned into political action and interest or else it will be useless in establishing any kind of change in the composition and character of our government. If the effort is fostered and built on religion for too long, it will seem crass and sacrilegious to make the needed transition when the time comes. It may well also backfire big time, in much the same way the "christian coalition"'s marriage to republican politics did throughout the Bush presidency, due to internicine denominational conflicts bubbling up and subtle policy preference differences growing into dividing lines the crack the coalition apart. If Beck is interested in seeing the political sphere be restored to honor, as I'm sure is his actual goal, he needs to pivot off of such a religiously imbued message fairly soon or risk it all falling apart in spectacular fashion. Religion can be an important part of it for individuals and individual politicians, there are lessons of good character to be had in religion, but religion is not the method or the primary message, it can't be, it will not work if it is.

So what is Beck doing?
pvolcko
 

Re: 8-28

PostBy: rberq On: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:02 pm

pvolcko wrote:I'm a Glenn Beck fan, have been for a number of years now, but the degree to which he has been weaving religion into his presentation is becoming off putting to me ... I start to chafe when people of faith begin to claim we should do something because of their faith or because the faith is shared by so many or what have you, without providing a good secular, logical basis for the proposal too ... So what is Beck doing?

Excellent questions. I hope someone who "gets" Beck can explain.
To paraphrase you, I'm a Barack Obama fan, have been for a number of years now, but whenever he weaves religion into his presentation it is off putting to me. Many may stop reading after this sentence, but, I consider strong religious faith to be prima facie evidence of mental defect. I too was raised Catholic, but as the Monty Python character said of being turned into a newt, "I got better".
So when politicians invoke God, be they Beck or Bush or Obama, I pretty much assume they know better and are engaging in a cynical attempt to look good to the public by displaying their right-thinking. (On second thought, scratch Bush from that list. Mental defect is enough in his case.) It is more comforting to me to think our "leaders" are intelligent but cynical, than to think they are gullible and cynical.
We need more people who believe in the good behaviors taught by many religions, without believing in the fairy tales taught by the same religions.
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:14 pm

Interesting. I'm not ignoring either of the last two postings. I'm thinking about what was said. Lisa

PS have you'll batten down the hatches yet. "They" tell me that we may see some rain long about Saturday. I hope so, we can use the rain; not expecting any wind though. Take care, Lisa
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: Duengeon master On: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:26 pm

sharia law for dummies;

1- It is obligatory for a Muslim to lie if the purpose is obligatory. That means that for the sake of abiding with Islam’s commandments, such as jihad, a Muslim is obliged to lie and shouldn't have any feelings of guilt or shame associated with this kind of lying.

2- Jihad defined as “to war against non-Muslims to establish the religion” is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.

3- A Caliph can hold office through seizure of power meaning through force.

4- A Caliph is exempt from being charged with serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape.

5- A percentage of Zakat (charity money) must go towards jihad.

6- It is obligatory to obey the commands of the Caliph, even if he is unjust.

7- A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave and a male.

8- The Muslim public must remove the Caliph if he rejects Islam.

9- A Muslim who leaves Islam must be killed immediately.

10- A Muslim will be forgiven for murder of: 1) an apostate 2) an adulterer 3) a highway robber, thus making vigilante street justice and honor killing acceptable.

11- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim but will get it for killing a Muslim

12- Sharia never abolished slavery, sexual slavery and highly regulates it. A master will not be punished for killing his slave.

13- Sharia dictates death by stoning, beheading, amputation of limbs, flogging even for crimes of sin such as adultery.

14- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims under the law. They must comply to Islamic law if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their scriptures or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.

15- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. But the same does not apply to Muslims.

16- A non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim.

17- Banks must be Sharia compliant and interest is not allowed.

18- No testimony in court is acceptable from people of low-level jobs, such as street sweepers or bathhouse attendants. Women in low level jobs such as professional funeral mourners cannot keep custody of their children in case of divorce.

19- A non-Muslim cannot rule even over a non-Muslims minority.

20- Homosexuality is punishable by death.

21- There is no age limit for marriage of girls. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and consummated at age 8 or 9.

22- Rebelliousness on the part of the wife nullifies the husband’s obligation to support her, gives him permission to beat her and keep her from leaving the home.

23- Divorce is only in the hands of the husband and is as easy as saying: “I divorce you” and becomes effective even if the husband did not intend it.

24- There is no community property between husband and wife and the husband’s property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.

25- A woman inherits half what a man inherits.

26- A man has the right to have up to 4 wives and she has no right to divorce him even if he is polygamous.

27- The dowry is given in exchange for the woman’s sexual organs.

28- A man is allowed to have sex with slave women and women captured in battle, and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.

29- The testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man.

30- A woman looses custody if she remarries.

31- To prove rape, a woman must have 4 male witnesses.

32- A rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.

33- A Muslim woman must cover every inch of her body which is considered “Awrah,” a sexual organ. Not all Sharia schools allow the face of a woman exposed.

34- A Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife at the time he caught her in the act of adultery. However, the opposite is not true for women since he “could be married to the woman he was caught with”.
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: SMITTY On: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:07 pm

Not much of a religion there .... more like a cult.
SMITTY
 
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: wsherrick On: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:56 am

SMITTY wrote:Not much of a religion there .... more like a cult.


Yes, a Cult that has brought, death, murder and genocide everywhere it has spread to in its 1000 plus years of bloody history.
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:45 am

Hi, I hope this helps but remember, these are my thoughts and not those of Beck.

pvolcko wrote:I need someone who "gets" what Beck is doing lately to help me out....

But I start to chafe when people of faith begin to claim we should do something because of their faith or because the faith is shared by so many or whathaveyou, without providing a good secular, logical basis for the proposal too. Beck is risking falling into this trap, if not in actuality then certainly by perception.


My perception of Beck's goals are very different from yours. I don't see where he "claims we do should something because of their faith." He is calling for a return to our foundations, whatever that maybe. It may be religion, it may not be. He certainly didn't call on anyone to join his religion or any other religion. He certainly had enough variety of denominations on the stage with him. I think he was calling for moving beyond religion as a dividing factor and discovering we are more alike than we are different.

pvolcko wrote:For instance, what exactly was the point of the 8/28 rally?... What he wants to restore honor too is the national body politic, but for some reason he wouldn't simply say that, because it would be "too political"...


I see Beck's goal very clearly, to him its not political; its personal. If every person held themselves individually responsible to honor whatever foundation gave them their sense of right and wrong, that would create a major shift in the 'national body politic." Can you imagine what could accomplished if everyone stopped looking out for themselves and starting putting others first?

pvolcko wrote:Maybe this was just a beginning to some broader effort, but at some point it has to be turned into political action and interest or else it will be useless in establishing any kind of change in the composition and character of our government. If the effort is fostered and built on religion for too long, it will seem crass and sacrilegious to make the needed transition when the time comes...


Without a doubt this is just the beginning; Beck himself told the crowd that if they went home and did nothing then the entire rally was for nothing. He expects people to go home and get involved; bringing honor, faith and charity to the national political scene through individual efforts and beliefs. He's not calling for us to do that as Catholics, Baptist, Jews or non believers but he is calling on us to draw from that foundation and use the knowledge to change America by changing ourselves.

pvolcko wrote:So what is Beck doing?
Again, I think Beck is encourage the country to change one person at a time through personal accountability. Although, I'd like to think I've uncluttered the subject of what Beck is trying to do, but
ultimately, the only person you can do that is you. It always amazes me how two people watching the same event can see two completely different shows. Anyway, have a great day. Lisa
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: pvolcko On: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:54 am

lowfog01 wrote:Hi, I hope this helps but remember, these are my thoughts and not those of Beck.


Thanks for the time and effort. :)

I agree, he certainly is wanting people of faith to be able to see beyond their inter-faith differences and work together for... something. I thought I knew what that something was a year ago, but now I'm not so sure what the political goals are of this effort, and there *must* be political goals or else its just a bunch of people being friendly to each other. That's certainly a nice enough thing to strive for, but hardly useful as an end goal in the political realm.

He isn't calling on anyone to join a specific faith, but he is imploring everyone to return to a faith. And the implication increasingly is that if you do not have a faith in God then your honor can't be restored and you will only have a partial ability to help in restoration of the nation's honor.

Back when he started the 9/12 project, he explicitly stated that one need not believe in God to be a part of the effort. But I haven't heard him say that in many moons now. He has instead ratched up the "god" talk more and more and so interwoven religious faith and principles into his presentation that I'm no longer sure he believes one can be a part of this restoration without a faith.

And don't get me wrong here. I'm not drawing my political motivations and efforts from the direction of Glenn Beck. I'm speaking as if he's a leader because I think he has crossed the boundary from circus clown radio jock to political leader in a way Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh never have or have attempted to.

The rally may have been changed from a political one to a religious/personal one, but that is not the end game here. Beck is far too invested in the anti-progressivism fight to have it be simply about being nice to each other and being honorable people. Those are foundational goals, not the end game. What is Beck going to do to convert all this into political action. And if one is not a person of faith, can they be of honor and help restore that national political honor?

It only changes something if the people elected are of honor. The voters are and have been honorable. They, being US citizens, are generally hugely charitable and already put others ahead of themselves. What has been missing is libertarian spirit in the policy making in government and honorable men and women in congress representing us in sufficient numbers to be effective.

I found many parts of the event on 8/28 to be emotionally touching and inspiring. I watched it on ustream almost in its entirety. But I was definitely left wondering what Beck is trying to do at this point. The degree of his shift into the religious realm after starting all of this on a strong anti-progressivism motivation is leaving me scratching my head. Maybe that's because of my own bias against religious motivations. But back 2 years ago Beck would throw some religion into the mix and it didn't bother me in the slightest. I loved to learn of the historical aspects of religion in the founders and the founding as provided by Barton et. al. It really is the degree to which it has become part of his show and "pitch" that is making me wonder what's up.

Again, thanks for the response, Lisa.

P.S. To rberq... it's offensive statements like that that give atheists and agnostics a bad rap with the faithful. Mental defect? Needing something to believe in is a not a defect. Needing something to focus on and ground a person, particularly a troubled person is not a defect. However, not understanding that is perhaps a defect.
pvolcko
 

Re: 8-28

PostBy: franco b On: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:06 pm

pvolcko wrote:P.S. To rberq... it's offensive statements like that that give atheists and agnostics a bad rap with the faithful. Mental defect? Needing something to believe in is a not a defect. Needing something to focus on and ground a person, particularly a troubled person is not a defect. However, not understanding that is perhaps a defect.


Well said.

The list of mental defectives of rberg's would have to include Gandhi, Jimmy Carter, and Wm. F. Buckley, as well as millions of others.

If you wish to see nature you must not stare at it. It is not amenable to the optic sense alone. All the senses and more have to be applied, and even then flashes of insight are all that most of us are capable of. Faith is the realization of this.

All the great religions have a common theme in that we must curb our desires in order to see the world as it actually is and not through the illusory filter of our wants. Few achieve this. When they do they are called Saints or Buddha or in India Mahatma.

Even Islam has a sect that takes joy in their religion and practices tolerance to all,the Sufi s. I was lucky enough to hear Ali Bhutto several times when he was the representative to the UN from Pakistan. He came from the Sufi district. They hung him. Benazir his daughter they also killed. I suspect that if Mohamed were alive today he would be appalled at the conduct of some of those who claim to be his followers.

I think that what Glen Beck is trying to accomplish is is to de-emphasize party and to substitute a higher moral standard. George Washington also believed that our founding principles were enough without party.
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Re: 8-28

PostBy: rberq On: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:15 pm

pvolcko wrote:Needing something to believe in is a not a defect. Needing something to focus on and ground a person, particularly a troubled person is not a defect.

Understood. But one can believe in the PRINCIPLES taught by religion, without believing they were handed down by a big daddy in the sky. Some researchers think there's a part of the brain that "needs" the all-powerful father-figure and protector, and that that attribute of human personality was an evolutionary development that served the earliest societies well. But today, if you observe "good" religious people and "good" non-religious people, you can't really tell the difference until you see them pull out the Bible or the prayer mat. And then, do you think better of Pat Robertson, or of Jim and Tammy Bakker, because they hid their sleaze behind Bible thumping? Common sense logic argues against the God guy, wishful thinking argues for him. If we want to maintain a technological society rather than go back to caveman days, there is real value in using our brains to think with rather than wish with.
rberq
 
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