Dual Boiler Plumbing and Wiring.

 
jaimz23
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Post by jaimz23 » Fri. Aug. 13, 2010 12:05 am

Edit...I spent $143.00 and ordered ALL of the books. I hope they are not ridiculously difficult to read or it was all for not. I have a feeling that I will get a solid amount of teaching out of the books, I just hope it is enough to get me through the install without turning my coal boiler into a projectile. Here's to good luck...I'll keep all of you posted, thanks again. I have also been one to partake in the "spirits" tonight. LOL. Here's also to a good week of work behind me and better days ahead.


 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Fri. Aug. 13, 2010 12:55 am

Sting wrote:
I need a speech recognition program to do my typing.

Oh c'mon Sting. It's about time you update that old Apple IIc or are you still on the Commodore 64 ???

Windows Vista has it built in :
**Broken Link(s) Removed** ... peech.aspx
Dragon is better...
http://www.nuance.com/naturallyspeaking/products/ ... s/home.asp

 
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Post by coalnewbie » Fri. Aug. 13, 2010 6:17 am

I just don't get it.

I have central hydronic oil heat from my pre coal days. I thought about setting up a coal hydronic system in tandem as described but rejected the idea as too costly and too maintenance intensive. The oil zones are on and set at 68F. The two Poconos in the basement have the coaltrol thermostats in the first floor set at 72F. All registers are open and doors have two inch gaps and the house is designed to breathe. A 12" 1000+CFM fan provides a cold air return, The fan is in the basement so it is very quiet and runs through a HEPA filter - very nice and dust free - Lowes $18. If the coal goes out or can't keep up (hasn't happened yet) the oil switches on - what is the problem? I can tell you cheap and reliable and I saved $12,000 in installation and that buys a LOT of coal. Based on two winters it has actually worked just great I don't care what the heating books say. I go to Florida for a week the coal fires go out and the oil system gets a once in a while beneficial work out. I come home and light the coal fires - bingo life carries on. Sooo simple. I now have the bills to prove it. Convection works and is free and the Romans had the right idea and the fan just minimizes the cold air finding its own way home and setting up mini cold zones. Do all the heating calcs you like I KNOW this works. My last post on the matter.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Aug. 13, 2010 11:13 am

jaimz23 wrote: Question 1: I have a existing oil boiler with a circulation pump in the supply line directly after the expansion tank...I am going to be connecting a Harman Trident SF-260 into the existing system using the supplied diagram in the manual...Will it be okay to put a second circulation pump in the return line between the two boilers. Not have 2 in the return line, but one in the supply line where it is already and one in the return line in between the 2 boilers and hook everything up the way it shows in the diagram with no other pipes, dump zones, or other circulation pumps beside the 2 I have listed. If I need something else pipes, pumps...etc., what is it?
The short answer is yes; however, you should really have a dump zone with a hand-fed boiler. I encourage you to read as much as you can before you tackle the install. There are many different ways to configure the system, and pros/cons to each approach.

I currently have a hand-fed boiler plumbed into my oil boiler almost exactly like the diagram Yanche posted. The advantage of this setup is the initial ease of installation...the downside is you are keeping the oil boiler warm all the time. In my case, the additional radiation from the oil boiler helps keep the basement warm and dry...so I am not in a hurry to change it. There is also a certain amount of heat lost up the chimney from the oil boiler. My oil burner has an air shutter that closes when the burner is idle, so the stack losses aren't as bad as they could be.

My hand-fed boiler has an aquastat that shuts off the circulator between the two boilers if the water temperature drops below 160 degrees. I also have the aquastat on the oil boiler turned down to about 160 degrees. This prevents nuisance firing of the oil burner, but it also means if the hand-fed boiler goes out I am heating the house with 160 degree water. As for the dump zone, I have a single acting aquastat on the hand-fed boiler that turns on my downstairs zone if the boiler temperature gets too high.

-Robert

 
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Post by jaimz23 » Fri. Aug. 13, 2010 3:43 pm

Here's my new simple question before all of my books arrive. (lol) I have a old hot water heater that was natural gas/propane that the previous owners had installed when I bought the place. I removed it and installed a new electric hot water heater. Can I use this old hot water heater as my dump zone???? The aquastat on the SF-260 has a dedicated portion for a dump/over temp. power. Can I just use this hot water heater and another circulator hooked up to the over temp. portion of the aquastat. Would I need any other check valves in the line N.C. or N.O.?

Thanks

 
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Post by Sting » Fri. Aug. 13, 2010 4:28 pm

jaimz23 wrote:Here's my new simple question before all of my books arrive. (lol) I have a old hot water heater that was natural gas/propane that the previous owners had installed when I bought the place. I removed it and installed a new electric hot water heater. Can I use this old hot water heater as my dump zone????

Thanks
This is a common question and one that's difficult to search for.

Quick answer --- NO

A dump zone must be able to QUICKLY accept a LARGE amount of energy for as long as necessary. A storage tank like your heater may or may not be at a temp where is can scrub a dump of energy and it will soon be full of energy - after all it is a storage tank - and then your dump zone call will fail - as the energy will have no place to go.

Search "Dump"

now -- that tank will be useful for other things like storage and added capacity for Domestic Hot Water production from the less expensive operation of your new coal boiler. This you can successfully search for, and read more about it.

Kind Regards
Sting

 
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Post by jaimz23 » Fri. Aug. 13, 2010 4:45 pm

Sting wrote:
jaimz23 wrote:Here's my new simple question before all of my books arrive. (lol) I have a old hot water heater that was natural gas/propane that the previous owners had installed when I bought the place. I removed it and installed a new electric hot water heater. Can I use this old hot water heater as my dump zone????

Thanks
This is a common question and one that's difficult to search for.

Quick answer --- NO

A dump zone must be able to QUICKLY accept a LARGE amount of energy for as long as necessary. A storage tank like your heater may or may not be at a temp where is can scrub a dump of energy and it will soon be full of energy - after all it is a storage tank - and then your dump zone call will fail - as the energy will have no place to go.

Search "Dump"

now -- that tank will be useful for other things like storage and added capacity for Domestic Hot Water production from the less expensive operation of your new coal boiler. This you can successfully search for, and read more about it.

Kind Regards
Sting
Damn...That just took the wind out of my sails. I thought for sure that would work. I figured, big tank sitting there with cooler water in it because of a over temp. circulation pump with a check valve in it on one end (return) and a N.C. check valve on the other side (supply), then the water goes above the Aquastat's set temp and it kicks on the over temp. circulation pump and opens the N.C. check valve allowing cooler water to be taken from the tank and put into the system while the hotter water flows into the tank. The cooler temp is then met and the over temp. circulation pump stops and the N.C. check valve closes again.

It sounded so great in my head...it's a shame it won't work. I really wanted that one to work. Well, my headache is back. There better be some good chapters on Dump Zones in those books. LOL.

I will keep looking.

P.S. what would you suggest that I use? A old cast iron radiator, some finned copper?

Thanks


 
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Aug. 13, 2010 6:49 pm

I use a large cast iron radiotor for the dump zone. It can absorb and shed a lot of btu's.

 
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Yanche
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Post by Yanche » Fri. Aug. 13, 2010 9:35 pm

Wait a minute and think about what you are trying to accomplish with a dump zone. Because a coal fire is always burning, at least a some idle level, it is always making hot water. The need for a dump zone occurs when the boiler water temperature starts to reach the temperature/pressure which will cause the pressure relief valve to open. Almost any of your normal use for the boiler water (radiators, baseboard, indirect hot water heater, Modine type space heater, etc.) can scrub (remove) enough BTU's from the boiler to prevent the over temperature/pressure condition. IF and this is a big IF, if electricity is available to run the circulator pump. So all you normally need is a control system that senses the approaching over temperature condition and turns on one or more circulator pumps. What is difficult to build is a system that does the same when NO electricity is available. Especially difficult if electricity fails right after a full combustion burn that reaches the aquastat high set point.

How many BTU's would you have to scrub? Likely something in the 10-20% of your boilers BTU rating. This would bring down the boiler water temperature to below the pressure release point. Any normal radiation zone with a working circulator could do this. IF you don't bring down the water temperature the pressure release will open. Ideally this does so safely, piping the now very hot water to a drain. The problem is recovery from such an event. Especially without human intervention. Water has been lost, it needs to be made up. Can the boiler water fill system automatically refill the system without trapped air? And do it quickly enough so that when power comes back on things will work safely. It's a problem that needs a fair amount of thought to engineer correctly. If you seldom loose electricity a system that depends on electricity is likely acceptable. Especially if you have an alternate fuel boiler AND a control system that allow it to take over and set an alarm condition. THEN human intervention can restore the coal boiler operation. As they say your mileage may vary. What's important to you may vary. There is no single correct solution.

 
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Post by jaimz23 » Mon. Aug. 16, 2010 9:52 pm

Hello to everyone again. My books arrived today and I have begun to read them.

1st question. I am contemplating my dump zone now and I was thinking about using 3 parallel piped runs of 6 ft. copper fin tubing mounted vertically on the wall of my basement so I can have a gravity fed dump zone should the power go out. If I am correct I would put a normally closed valve in the feed side of the copper tubing running just below my ceiling to the wall which will go to the D.Z. and not one in the return which runs across or near the floor or do I put a N.C. valve in the return too?

Also doing a setup this way, how can I use this same zone in a over temp situation when the Aquastat wants to energize something to tell it to open or flow water? Is there a way to do this that I am missing? Because I want it to work in both situations.

2nd question. In the book "Pumping Away" Dan Holohan is speaking about expansion tanks and something about adding a boiler and piping a system with a existing tank.If not done properly the tank will crush on itself. Sorry, I have just begun reading and have not totally got a grasp on the subject yet, but when I am about to pipe my new dual boiler system, and I start to cut into the existing pipe, will the expansion tank crush?? Do I have to do something to prevent this are there precautions and how do I refill with air/water when done?

Thanks again.

 
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Post by jaimz23 » Tue. Aug. 17, 2010 6:12 pm

Bump for a new day.

 
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Sting
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Post by Sting » Tue. Aug. 17, 2010 6:16 pm

you will be fine

keep reading

there will be a test later

:)

 
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Post by jaimz23 » Thu. Aug. 26, 2010 8:09 pm

Hello all,

I found a basic add on boiler diagram and I changed it to meet my thinking of how the boiler should be plumbed. everything is not to scale, but I did that for space reasons. I wrote what I was trying to accomplish on there. My Primary circulating pump is already on the supply zone, so that is where I put it.

Now my question(s) is.
1. How is the "optional loop circulator" told when to turn on and off?? What do I connect it to besides 120V?
2. How does this setup work properly? Wouldn't the optional circulator just pull heat from the primary zone/radiator return line and keep hot water going to the radiators thus not letting the house cool at all? Or does the "optional Circulator somehow pull water from the oil boiler??? Confused....

Please give me a hand with this. I have read a few books and am still unsure on a couple of things. If you see anything on the diagram that is wrong or that I am missing please tell me or draw it on there if u want to. I have a few extra valves/air purges in my basement that aren't on the diagram, but this diagram is very close to what I think I need.

Thanks

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Sting
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Post by Sting » Thu. Aug. 26, 2010 9:13 pm

Good job on your reading, its obvious your knowledge is growing by leaps and bounds -- lets look at this - remember think like the water
jaimz23 wrote: Now my question(s) is.
1. How is the "optional loop circulator" told when to turn on and off?? What do I connect it to besides 120V?
Think of this guy as you would a traffic cop - he is there to make the return water want to go back to the coal boiler and not to the Oil boiler. You will - well I would wire it to run when ever the the coal boiler is above 145 degreesand whenever the load has any call for heat. ( just a couple of ice cube or fan coil relays will do) If the coal boiler falls below 140 wire it so the pump stops - because one of two things has happened - a] the system has overwhelmed the coal boiler output and this will protect the boiler from condensing temps plus allow it to recover and once it get back off its ass the pump will resume its duty to direct coal boiler energy into your system -- or b] the coal boiler has failed :oops: and we wire a back up into the system to launch the oil boiler to keep the house from going cold. note: the oil boiler can also fire on those really really cold nights to help out.
jaimz23 wrote:2. How does this setup work properly? Wouldn't the optional circulator just pull heat from the primary zone/radiator return line and keep hot water going to the radiators thus not letting the house cool at all? Or does the "optional Circulator somehow pull water from the oil boiler???
a single flow check valve between the oil boiler and the branch tee just before this pump will provide the fix here.
jaimz23 wrote:If you see anything on the diagram that is wrong or that I am missing please tell me or draw it on there if u want to.
only one thing -- and I need another beer to be sure but you have a forced and a gravity over temp protection system -- they won't play well together with out a flow check in the pump or in line or the pump will simply spin energy bearing liquid in the green part of the loop and you would not get any heat scrub.

ok -- I am often accused of talking out of my --- hat -- so pick away at this and ask if you need direction.

 
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Post by jaimz23 » Fri. Aug. 27, 2010 11:37 am

Thanks for the responses Sting, much obliged.

I do have a few new questions now.

[/quote]
Think of this guy as you would a traffic cop - he is there to make the return water want to go back to the coal boiler and not to the Oil boiler. You will - well I would wire it to run when ever the the coal boiler is above 145 degrees and whenever the load has any call for heat. ( just a couple of ice cube or fan coil relays will do) If the coal boiler falls below 140 wire it so the pump stops

I am new to fan coil and ice cube relays so what/where do I wire the circulating pump and relays so that they see temperature? Do I splice them into somewhere? Or do the fan coil relays sense temperature somehow and activate the relay accordingly? In my head right now I am picturing from 120V to the fan coil relay to the circulating pump, but how does the fan coil relay see heat? Or am I way off?

[/quote]a single flow check valve between the oil boiler and the branch tee just before this pump will provide the fix here.

This one I do understand. Flow check valve in the line between the oil boiler and the "T" allowing water to flow to the coal boiler and to the oil boiler but not from the oil boiler. Right?

[/quote]
only one thing -- and I need another beer to be sure but you have a forced and a gravity over temp protection system -- they won't play well together with out a flow check in the pump or in line or the pump will simply spin energy bearing liquid in the green part of the loop and you would not get any heat scrub.[/quote]

This one I am somewhat confused on as well. The N.C. valve in the diagram's dump zone that I have will always be closed when power is applied thus only letting the pump pump water to the D.Z. if a over temp situation is reached. Then, if I buy a Circulating pump with a check valve in it that closes until power is applied to the pump, and the power goes out the N.C. valve will open and the check valve in the circulating pump will remain closed, thus allowing gravity to feed the hot water to the D.Z. Am I correct in assuming this? If so then basically my only difference in my diagram is making sure the D.Z. circulating pump has a check valve that only opens when power is applied. Then a flow check valve between the Oil Boiler and the "T" and somehow (lol) fan coil relays and figuring out how to get them to see heat and turn on accordingly.

Thanks again. PennCan Raceway tonight. Cheers!


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