8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: smokeyCityTeacher On: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:16 pm

samhill wrote:Just got back Smokey, I talked to three of my old classmates that retired from GM & so far their pensions haven`t been touched. One was in management & the other two hourly.



Ask your classmates if their pension was completely composed of GM common stock. I can tell you in advance the answer will be "No". If it was you would have been hearing from them how they lost everything. Its up to each employer how it pays into an employee's pension account. In my brother's case - the dealership he worked for paid into his pension with GM stock. You friends were luckier than my bother.

BTW I figured out how I got the influx wrong when I said that under Obama more were coming in than under Bush. I was reading about California and since the AZ law went into effect many illegals left AZ for CALIF which declared itself a sanctuary state (at least several major cities). This caused a higher # of illegals moving into CALIF while there was a mass exodus of whites from CALIF.
Furthermore because of the economy a much higher proportion of illegals moved to CALIF starting in 2008 and 2009 due to CALIF having such a generous welfare system.

My bad - the overall number coming in to US overall did decrease due to the economy and then even more so due to AZ law.

I confused this with the increase into CALIF since late 2008-09
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:45 am

Thats OK Smokey, it still doesn`t explain how what your brothers employer did is Obamas fault, that was my main question.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:29 am

The problem isn't that we have immigrants, legal or illegal, having babies. This is a nation of immigrants. The problem is that we no longer have one culture/society to which they are compelled to become a member. Multiculturalism is solely a product of the left. For that reason I hold Obama and all of his party accountable for the weakened state of our nation.

United we stand, divided we fall. There was a time when both Democrats and Republicans defended this nation from the same perspective. That time is long gone.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:46 am

mikeandgerry wrote:This is a nation of immigrants. The problem is that we no longer have one culture/society to which they are compelled to become a member.

OK, that's plausible as a theory. But here's your exam question: At what point in the country's history did we have one culture/society, and what were the crucial elements of that oneness? Please be specific.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:14 pm

Heck thats an easy one if you happen to believe most here, it was the exact moment that Obama took the oath as President, the moment before that everything was right. Yea right thats the ticket.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:31 am

Multiculturalism had its political beginnings in the 1970's when "scholars" rejected as myth the notion of a cultural "melting pot' in the US. The scholars were full of crap then. They are full of crap now. The US has always been a melting pot but now it is becoming multicultural as are European nations. Those nations are now, as an example, forced to deal with the unworkability of multiculturalism as they are faced with the question of following their own policy of maintaining the multicultural "mosaic" or being hypocrites in the case of adding Sharia law as an "option" to their western legal system in order to accommodate Muslim culture. That question will ultimately expose multiculturalism for the liberal crock that it has always been.

BTW, Those western nations who have adopted official multicultural policies or implemented such ideas have found their greatness in decline. Check the Wikipedia article on Multiculturalism for both fact and fantasy.

rberq, stop with the silliness. You should be more specific in disproving the notion of a cultural melting pot. The "scholars" never did. Case in point: Language.

English is still dominant because that is the cultural language of the US. In parts of the US other languages are spoken but in order to thrive, those non-English speakers had to learn some English and they made sure their kids learned English. Other languages are now accommodated by federal law. That was a case of a multicultural policy implemented in the 1970's. Today, in California, that state's accommodation of Spanish speakers by their multicultural policy has eliminated the need for many Hispanic children to learn English. It is that policy that has established the idea that two cultures can live side by side in California. As we can see in that state it isn't working out well because it is horribly costly, inefficient and alienating among cultural factions.

There is no doubt, except among liberals, that multiculturalism is a quaint but contrived idea. Cultures happen and they are all melting pots. They cannot be planned or engineered. Artificial efforts to create a "mosaic" culture adds a level of government interference and cost that is unnecessary and destructive of the natural culture.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:42 am

mikeandgerry wrote:... You should be more specific in disproving the notion of a cultural melting pot ... Case in point: Language ... Today, in California, that state's accommodation of Spanish speakers by their multicultural policy has eliminated the need for many Hispanic children to learn English ... Cultures happen and they are all melting pots.

I absolutely agree with you on the language issue. Trying to ease the transition to learning English, some states have gone too far in making it unnecessary for people to learn it at all. English was never "forced" by the state -- for example, before my generation in my home town there were substantial numbers who spoke only French, but my generation was largely bilingual and now even those of French heritage know little French. Perhaps the difference now, especially in the largest cities, is that the ethnic groups are so large that they are self-sufficient within themselves, and the practical need to learn English is reduced.

I should have conceded the language question in my original post, since I assumed you would bring it up and we have no disagreement there. But I will repeat the larger question: At what point in the country's history did we have one culture/society, and what were the crucial elements of that oneness (other than language)? Do I have to stop eating pizza and tacos? (I'm perfectly willing to give up sauerkraut.)
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:57 pm

Your original question is silly because there is no "one point" at which a single American culture ended and "multiculturalism" began. Cultural change is always gradual but effected by two forces: the people's cultural choices and government cultural policy. Only the former is legitimate in a free society (by definition). The latter is the mark of a totalitarian society because coercion is the only enforcement mechanism.

The thrust of my argument is twofold: maintaining cultural legitimacy and guaranteeing the expectation (and implied right) of citizens to a stable and free unitary culture. I believe you are trying to make the point that multiculturalism and the melting pot are two different ways of expressing all cultural formation. That is incorrect.

The scholarly notion of multiculturalism began to be implemented in both higher education institutions and government policy decisions in the early 1970's. Thus, prior to then the US culture was a melting pot by nature. Today the culture has begun to be divided through government policies which, to some degree, obstruct immigrant assimilation to a unitary US culture. The trend has been for more of that type of policy and most of the impetus is from the left. Those policies allow a passive invasion of the US by immigrants in failing to defend the rights of US citizens to a unitary culture. The advancement of those policies is self-destructive.

In order for immigration to benefit the US, the immigrants must want to be a part of the existing culture and all that freedom implies, including cultural struggle. By allowing foreigners to import their native culture to a protected environment is to cede territory to another nation.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:04 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:Your original question is silly ... The thrust of my argument is twofold: maintaining cultural legitimacy and guaranteeing the expectation (and implied right) of citizens to a stable and free unitary culture. I believe you are trying to make the point that multiculturalism and the melting pot are two different ways of expressing all cultural formation.

No, I am simply trying to make the point that there NEVER was a unitary culture in North America. Ever since the last glaciation ended and the wooly mammoths moved in, it has been in flux. If you don't think so, ask a wooly mammoth -- oops, maybe that helps prove my point. To rephrase my silly question: If there are things that make our culture "unitary", what are those things? We have already agreed on the English language as one element. What else?
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:10 pm

rberq wrote:If there are things that make our culture "unitary", what are those things? We have already agreed on the English language as one element. What else?


The strong belief In The Declaration of Independence, our Revolution, and Constitution. I would disagree about language since in the past even the immigrants capable of the worst broken English had a reverence for our concepts of the rights of man and the limitations of government. The learning of English was secondary, but necessary if they wanted to prosper.

Unfortunately this falls into the Once Upon a Time category.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:29 pm

franco b wrote:
rberq wrote:If there are things that make our culture "unitary", what are those things?


The strong belief In The Declaration of Independence, our Revolution, and Constitution.... The learning of English was secondary, but necessary if they wanted to prosper.

Good points. I suspect modern immigrants, especially the illegal ones, are focused less on the Constitution and more on the prospering. Though it is certainly true that America was always seen as the land of opportunity. So maybe even the once-upon-a-time immigrants weighed the prospering pretty heavily.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:17 pm

The concept of a unitary culture in the west is moot. What matters is that there has been a dominant western culture in the US since it's inception as a nation. Like all cultures, it changes. What matters is how fast it changes.

The elements of US culture were the same as most: stable dominant language, government, faith and most importantly allegiance to the same values, namely independence, liberty, opportunity and a free republic. Further, it is impossible to have a true and free republic without embracing future cultural change but potential damage from rapid change from outside sources is what the left refuses to acknowledge as detrimental to the current culture.

As I stated, cultural change is inevitable but those who are established here cannot receive the blessings this free republic if their culture is substantially challenged and its stability imperiled. The degree and pace of change is the debate which must be addressed in terms other than racial or demagogic. The left is tone deaf on this issue.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:57 am

Just a question there Mike, why is it that even when this current immagration problem has been going on for decades & both sides have had ample oppertunities to address it but neither has except just enough to quiet some rather than fix, you see it as only a liberal problem? Not to go against what you say or anything but it seems that no matter what the subject you at times make some sense until you get to the nasty left not understanding the scheme of things & completely over look that the right has done the same.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: franco b On: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:59 am

samhill wrote:Not to go against what you say or anything but it seems that no matter what the subject you at times make some sense until you get to the nasty left not understanding the scheme of things & completely over look that the right has done the same.


You got that right! It really is not a left right issue and both sides are at fault.

If Jefferson were alive today he would be regarded as a right wing fanatic.
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Re: 8% of all babies born is US are born to illegal aliens

PostBy: rberq On: Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:03 am

mikeandgerry wrote:... what the left refuses to acknowledge ... The left is tone deaf ...

Ditto what samhill said. Much of what you say makes sense, Mike, but we should not fall into the trap of making everything a conservative vs. liberal issue. We are just being snookered by cynical politicians who figure to keep us fighting among ourselves, so we won't notice that they as a group are representing special $$$ interests rather than the general public. On almost any issue, there is a large middle ground that both conservatives and liberals can agree upon. Why don't they legislate the middle ground and skip the extremes?
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