Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: vmi1983 On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:09 pm

nortcan wrote:I also made some testings for the lower glasses gap: completly sealed, partially sealed and not sealed and not much difference.
With the holes I made in the front doors, I usually just open them a small gap. Some time I make some test by opening one side more than the other one and then the fire goes on more on the closed one indicating that the draft is by-passing the coal bed on the open side. About like Vigll Peaburner just said. The advantave of these holes is that they keep the glasses more clear and free from ash etchings them. For the over the fire gasses burning the air entering from these hole seem to just go too high and to the stove's exit. I would like to try to send that air in a channel to the top of the front doors to see if it would do like when opening the top griddle and go down like when opening the top griddle when having no blues, the blues arrive instantly when opening the top griddle.
Also right like said, the left secondary air opening must be closed when burning ant. And anyway, this vent could never ignites anything cause too far from the hot heat needed to ignite something. Just have a look at the modern EPA wood stoves, a more sofisticated device must be arrange to burn the gasses than that low placed hole.
BTW, a Vigll is arriving original with single row of regular fire bricks like on the exploded view sent by VigllPB.


Right I put a double row to steepen the box... this is not such a good idea.

There is a lot of air coming thru the slit in my lower glass. I am going to pack that slit right now.

Thanks,

Matt
vmi1983
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Godin Large Round/ La Belle Epoque
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: nortcan On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:42 pm

Just pile fire bricks on the sides is not the best way to make it works at the max. And I know cause made some testing on that.
Like I already said somewhere: when making one modification in a stove, it almost always asks for an other change somewhere else to make the stove works in an other way from original. And when making some mofifs on a stove lots of cares should be consider to keep the stove safe. It's important to study how an anthracite stove works and why it works that way. Looking at all the stoves you can also could bring new ideas. Even antique stoves can learn a lot to many stove makers or stoves modifiers. If making some changes on the stove, better to start slowly when trying to improve something and take care to be able to get the stove back to it's original desing if needed for some reasons.
But if someone like their stoves just like it is, perfect and just keep it in good shape with a regular maintenance. Modifying a stove can lead to dangerous situations. I made many on my stoves but don't recommand that to everybody to do so.
nortcan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Stuart,Peterson/ Grander
Stove/Furnace Model: Sunnyside/ Golden Bride

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: vmi1983 On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:11 pm

nortcan wrote:Just pile fire bricks on the sides is not the best way to make it works at the max. And I know cause made some testing on that.
Like I already said somewhere: when making one modification in a stove, it almost always asks for an other change somewhere else to make the stove works in an other way from original. And when making some mofifs on a stove lots of cares should be consider to keep the stove safe. It's important to study how an anthracite stove works and why it works that way. Looking at all the stoves you can also could bring new ideas. Even antique stoves can learn a lot to many stove makers or stoves modifiers. If making some changes on the stove, better to start slowly when trying to improve something and take care to be able to get the stove back to it's original desing if needed for some reasons.
But if someone like their stoves just like it is, perfect and just keep it in good shape with a regular maintenance. Modifying a stove can lead to dangerous situations. I made many on my stoves but don't recommand that to everybody to do so.



God solid advice.... especially for an inexperienced guy like me... the stove is going back to its original state.
:o

Matt
vmi1983
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Godin Large Round/ La Belle Epoque
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite

Visit Hitzer Stoves

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: vmi1983 On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:55 pm

Hello VigII Burners.

If you can, please place a lit match, etc. and walk the flame over the bottom window slit from left to right, on both doors please.
I am curious to find out if you folks have any air (less or more) being drawn into the fire box. It would seem logical that some amount of air should enter
through the slit. Otherwise, that slit would have been sealed off with gasket. I am sure as VigIIPB said, it should not suck in an abundance of oxygen, right.

My VigII is back to it's near original state. Wadhams casted angle fire brick for me. The angle brick is 2" higher than the factory and then there is the steeper angle. He thinks this will help remove ash on the sides easier, due to the added height.

Thanks,

Matt
vmi1983
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Godin Large Round/ La Belle Epoque
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: nortcan On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:40 pm

vmi1983 wrote:Hello VigII Burners.

If you can, please place a lit match, etc. and walk the flame over the bottom window slit from left to right, on both doors please.
I am curious to find out if you folks have any air (less or more) being drawn into the fire box. It would seem logical that some amount of air should enter
through the slit. Otherwise, that slit would have been sealed off with gasket. I am sure as VigIIPB said, it should not suck in an abundance of oxygen, right.

My VigII is back to it's near original state. Wadhams casted angle fire brick for me. The angle brick is 2" higher than the factory and then there is the steeper angle. He thinks this will help remove ash on the sides easier, due to the added height.

Thanks,

Matt

Very good idea for the higher angle bricks.
nortcan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Stuart,Peterson/ Grander
Stove/Furnace Model: Sunnyside/ Golden Bride

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:50 pm

Matt, I checked as you asked. I used a mini Bic lighter. No deflection ... until I got the metal head of the lighter right up against the closest raised cast iron bezel next to the glass. Vacuum is being drawn by the fire/draft through the bottom gap of both door windows. Once the flame was up against the intersection of the cast iron and the glass, the flame would be sucked right down into the very small gap between the ungasketed void formed between the glass and the doors. Both sides exhibited the same draw on the flame. The flame had to be nearly on the glass before you could observe the effect.

I knew that the gap was there but never though to check it with a flame. I always knew there was air drawn in but I didn't think it would deflect a lighter flame. Good catch Matt :) That got me thinking if the draft could be quantified. I used my Dwyer 460 air meter and moved the end of the collector pipe across the area where the flame was drawn into the gap. As I move the pipe across the door/glass junctions, the draft measured between -0.005 to -0.01 inches of water column. Both door/glass gaps measured in a similar range. The stove conditions that this measurement was taken under were at ~ 700*F, late stage burn (added ~20# coal between now and last shake&fill 22.5 hrs. ago) and draft measured -0.095 iwc measured at the secondary air inlet port. The stove pipe skin temperature on the single walled area about 6' above the stove measured 178*F

Edited the door/glass readings. See two post below
Last edited by VigIIPeaBurner on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:05 pm

VigIIPeaBurner wrote: That got me thinking if the draft could be quantified. I used my Dwyer 460 air meter and moved the end of the collector pipe across the area where the flame was drawn into the gap. As I move the pipe across the door/glass junctions, the draft measured between -0.02 to -0.05 inches of water column. Both door/glass gaps measured in a similar range. The stove conditions that this measurement was taken under were at ~ 700*F, late stage burn (added ~20# coal between now and last shake&fill 22.5 hrs. ago) and draft measured -0.095 iwc measured at the secondary air inlet port. The stove pipe skin temperature on the single walled area about 6' above the stove measured 178*F.

The Dwyer 460 is quite a sensitive gauge, the low scale is 0.005" to 0.09" H2O. Better resolution than most manometers.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:24 am

Yanche wrote:The Dwyer 460 is quite a sensitive gauge, the low scale is 0.005" to 0.09" H2O. Better resolution than most manometers.


Yanche,
Thank you for that gentle reminder-I incorrectly read the high scale for the window readings. I've edited the post to reflect reading the proper scale: 0.005 to 0.01 :oops:
The high scale does read 0.05 to 1.0 on the high scale. :roll:
Last edited by VigIIPeaBurner on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: vmi1983 On: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:30 am

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:Matt, I checked as you asked. I used a mini Bic lighter. No deflection ... until I got the metal head of the lighter right up against the closest raised cast iron bezel next to the glass. Vacuum is being drawn by the fire/draft through the bottom gap of both door windows. Once the flame was up against the intersection of the cast iron and the glass, the flame would be sucked right down into the very small gap between the ungasketed void formed between the glass and the doors. Both sides exhibited the same draw on the flame. The flame had to be nearly on the glass before you could observe the effect.

I knew that the gap was there but never though to check it with a flame. I always knew there was air drawn in but I didn't think it would deflect a lighter flame. Good catch Matt :) That got me thinking if the draft could be quantified. I used my Dwyer 460 air meter and moved the end of the collector pipe across the area where the flame was drawn into the gap. As I move the pipe across the door/glass junctions, the draft measured between -0.02 to -0.05 inches of water column. Both door/glass gaps measured in a similar range. The stove conditions that this measurement was taken under were at ~ 700*F, late stage burn (added ~20# coal between now and last shake&fill 22.5 hrs. ago) and draft measured -0.095 iwc measured at the secondary air inlet port. The stove pipe skin temperature on the single walled area about 6' above the stove measured 178*F.


Hey VIGIIPB. Thank you for your data. My lighter test confirms the same. The metal head needs to be up against the raised bezel, to see the pull. The suction is stronger on the left glass/bezel. There is a strong draft tonight. The temps on top are 500 F
and climbing...

The design of the Vigilant allows for some amount of air to enter the slits and go over the blue ladies. to complete secondary combustion :?:

Geez, it's not explained in the operator's manual. What do you think (know)?

My friend Wadhams Iron Works, (we both live in Wadhams, NY) put in the angle bricks at noon. We kept the fire going but has taken some time to reestablish the fire. Good news is this stove has been burning continuously since mid-november. Yep it has been cleaned out. It had bricks removed and
angle bricks installed, and yet the mighty VigII keeps burning away. :lol:

Thanks!!

Matt
vmi1983
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Godin Large Round/ La Belle Epoque
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: Wadhams Ironworks On: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:38 pm

VigIIPB, was the -0.095 iwc reading that you measured at the seconday taken with it closed?
I have to say that I always keep my secondary cracked open about 1/8". I did notice recently some obstructions in the secondary port. It was a surprising amount of unburnt, rice sized flakes. I assume that they come from the over spill that lands above my damper when I fill the stove. I imagine that the closing damper causes any ash and small pieces of fresh coal to fall behind the damper. I feel that there is a small gap between the upper fireback and the back plate that allows for this to happen. Granted this was after approx. 4 years of operation that this path became obstructed. I am of the opinion that the secondary is a function better suited for bit burners but I do also feel that it serves to improve the combustion of the gases as they snake up the back of the vigII. I do not use a rear heat shield an I feel that I get slightly higher temps on the back of the stove with the secondary open about 1/8". Food for thought.

-Dan
Wadhams Ironworks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Vermont Castings
Stove/Furnace Model: Vigilant II

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:38 pm

Wadhams Ironworks wrote:VigIIPB, was the -0.095 iwc reading that you measured at the seconday taken with it closed?
I have to say that I always keep my secondary cracked open about 1/8". I did notice recently some obstructions in the secondary port. It was a surprising amount of unburnt, rice sized flakes. I assume that they come from the over spill that lands above my damper when I fill the stove. I imagine that the closing damper causes any ash and small pieces of fresh coal to fall behind the damper. I feel that there is a small gap between the upper fireback and the back plate that allows for this to happen. Granted this was after approx. 4 years of operation that this path became obstructed. I am of the opinion that the secondary is a function better suited for bit burners but I do also feel that it serves to improve the combustion of the gases as they snake up the back of the vigII. I do not use a rear heat shield an I feel that I get slightly higher temps on the back of the stove with the secondary open about 1/8". Food for thought.

-Dan


To further clarify, this is the port where I measured the -0.095 iwc. I measure the iwc with the open port fully plugged with a shaped rubber plug that I've inserted the manometer tube through. When I take the reading, it's plugged except for the flow through the manometer.

When I've opened the secondary port even a little, I see my thermostatic flap open more meaning the stove has cooled and the system is attempting to increase stove temperature. My thoughts & observations lead me to conclude leaving it open just siphons off draft that would normally pull up thought the coal bed aiding combustion and not be negated by the open port sucking ambient air up the chimney. Kind of like what happens when one of the clean out covers falls off and pulls draft away from under the grates. That's why i keep it closed.

I can't say for certain but I don't believe it's possible to create combustion in the side chamber with ambient temperature air entering into the lower part of the left side chamber. First, the air isn't passed through superheated chambers before it's introduced into a gas mix that is of questionable concentration to reach it's flash/combustion point. The air that makes it in through the door/glass joint is more properly conditioned and positioned to have a greater effect. Also, the restirctor plate is removed for ant burning allowing for more under fire oxygen supply. I feel the secondary port is analogous to a vestigial tail ... it was there for something a long time ago but has passed its design use - if it ever had one. I don't think it was even that useful in the original wood burner design from whence the outside panels came to be used in the 2310 version. If you have access to an IR gun, check the operating temperature of the stove back over a period of days/weeks and let us know if you see a variation in open vs. closed. It's interesting to know rather than try and figure if there's value or loss achieved by using the port.

The only obstruction I ever see at the secondary air inlet is some fly ash build up. Nothing too great. I've never seen fines build up anywhere past the sides/back of the fire box. It almost sounds like some part isn't fitting properly. I've had the sides of the stove removed and can't quite see how anything can get in there unless it spills over the brick into one of the side exhaust ports. I have found pieces of coal that made it into this chamber in the fly ash when I clean the fly ash out from the three clean out ports located just under the grates. I always shovel off the bottom of the bin and have plenty of fines in each hod. I rarely miss the firebox and get fines on the smoke shelf/damper when I dump the hod into the firebox. Pieces of nut or pea will land back there but I reach in and move them to the fire.

vmi1983 wrote: ..8<..The design of the Vigilant allows for some amount of air to enter the slits and go over the blue ladies. to complete secondary combustion :?:

Geez, it's not explained in the operator's manual. What do you think (know)?

My friend Wadhams Iron Works, (we both live in Wadhams, NY) put in the angle bricks at noon. We kept the fire going but has taken some time to reestablish the fire. Good news is this stove has been burning continuously since mid-november. Yep it has been cleaned out. It had bricks removed and angle bricks installed, and yet the mighty VigII keeps burning away. :lol:

Thanks!!

Matt


No, they never mention the gap in the manual. They must have overlooked it. I actually looked for it after reading in this forum about Harmon stoves introducing over fire air via this same gap. Found it in the 2310 too. I wonder if it's truly a source of secondary air or is the glass installed this way to allow the glass to expand into an unrestrained expansion zone. For all I know, it's likely to be both :)

The steeper slope on the angled filler bricks is a good idea. What are they 'cast' from? I'd replace mine with something of this design. Right now, mine are nothing more than broken pieces cemented into place with furnace cement. Last repaired them 3 years ago and they've held up since. When it's time to redo them, I'll look into steeper replacement. Wanna sell a pair :D ?
Attachments
Sept 09 034.JPG
(88.85 KiB) Viewed 19 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
Vestigial 'secondary air' inlet.
[nepathumb]33184[/nepathumb]
Vigilant II 004.JPG
(148.22 KiB) Viewed 82 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
Left side sans split brick. One screw removal. Tight fit, even more when split bricks are in place.
[nepathumb]33185[/nepathumb]
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: vmi1983 On: Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:50 am

[/quote]

No, they never mention the gap in the manual. They must have overlooked it. I actually looked for it after reading in this forum about Harmon stoves introducing over fire air via this same gap. Found it in the 2310 too. I wonder if it's truly a source of secondary air or is the glass installed this way to allow the glass to expand into an unrestrained expansion zone. For all I know, it's likely to be both :)

The steeper slope on the angled filler bricks is a good idea. What are they 'cast' from? I'd replace mine with something of this design. Right now, mine are nothing more than broken pieces cemented into place with furnace cement. Last repaired them 3 years ago and they've held up since. When it's time to redo them, I'll look into steeper replacement. Wanna sell a pair :D ?[/quote]


Hey VigIIPB...

Wadhams made wood molds and poured in refractory cement. Wadhams is a very ingenious fellow, I don't think he's easily stumped. Of course I failed to take a picture of the bricks, sorry. Wadhams made them steeper and taller in height.
They extend just high enough so the 90 degree sides make it easier to slice the ash into the ash pan. So far no ash build up.

Thanks,

matt



I think you are right about the secondary air.... my friend's Surdiac models come with a series of air slits through the front glass panels.
vmi1983
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Godin Large Round/ La Belle Epoque
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: Wadhams Ironworks On: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:03 pm

I have a few pairs that are in the works with a new design. Once I pull them from the molds I will post some pics. They needs a few days to cure, read bake the water out under low temps. The faster they dry the weaker they are, like all portland based products. I'm appalled at the price of replacement triangle fire bricks. I'm not sure if the $70-ish price is for a pair or a single brick. :mad: I usually pay about 4 to 5 dollars for a split brick at the yard but I usually buy in bulk for fireplace jobs. I always have a few bags of castable refractory on hand so it's easy to make any odd shape.
Wadhams Ironworks
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Vermont Castings
Stove/Furnace Model: Vigilant II

Re: Anyone burn a Vermont castings Vigilant II?

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:43 pm

That design sounds like a great compromise between fire box volume and easier ash removal. I have just pieces of the originals left. There's simply no way I'll pay that price. $70 :!: I soaked all pieces in water, buttered them up really well with furnace cement. Once that cured for a few days at room temp, I soaked them again and wet down the CI ledge and the side split brick with water, buttered all with furnace cement and smoothed them into place. I let them cure and dampened them a few times over a couple of days. After a few days I built a few small wood fires, first in fireplace mode, and then progressively shut the doors. I installed all new split bricks first essentially the same way. I'm on the third year and using my 12th ton through the stove and they haven't loosed up yet.
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Visit Hitzer Stoves