condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: qbwebb On: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:01 pm

Hi everyone, I know this is a coal burning forum, but people on here were such a great help w/ my VF3000 install, I figured some of the same folks would have good insight for a fellow coal burner who became a 1st time home owner almost a year ago.

When the temp outside starts to drop, my casement thermal pane windows all start to form condensation on the room side. The windows are HURD, manufactured in 1994 and installed in the house during initial construction in 1996. I have one of those programmable t-stats w/ a humidity gauge that usually reads between 20-30 % RH all winter, yet the windows still sweat. Bathroom windows sweat more, master bath does not have exhaust fan, going to install one in the near future. I just wondered what gives, at first I thought maybe the seals where they crank shut need replacing, but the sweat forms on windows that don't crank out as well. Sweat is Most prevalent on the bottom surface, wood is beginning to surface rot and paint (circa 2007 I think) is chipping.

Do older thermal pane windows not have thermal breaks in them like the ones you buy today? It seems like there is condensation on them all winter, I was thinking of just drying them out real well and applying some glazing to stop the wood from rotting.
qbwebb
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: VF3000

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: WNY On: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:38 pm

YES, exhaust fans are your friend, especially in baths and kitchens or where moisture is present.

Older thermopanes may not have the argon gas as a vapor barrier or it has leaked out. ? Not sure.

But sounds like you have a pretty sealed house.

Do you have roof vents, ridge vents, under eave venting, etc....Ventilation is the key to keeping the moisture down.

You may get some condensation when it get really cold outside, we get a little around the seams where the windows come together, they are only a couple years old and have the UV and Argon gas. We keep our humidity around 40% with a humidifier.
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:04 pm

Could be the gas has leaked out and they are acting more like single pane glass...
The inside glass gets cold and poof...
You have condensation...
Does the glass feel cold?
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove


Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:14 pm

HURD is under new ownership after lawsuits and bankruptcy. I recommend that you review some of this material and see what recourse you have to remedy your situation. Your problem IS the windows.

http://www.google.com/search?q=HURD&ie= ... 203d1b4e27
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:00 pm

Those must be the windows I have. :lol:

Ours grow black mold & green fungus in the bathroom, & in the rest of the house we get condensation on the upper portions, & up to 1" thick ice at the bottom lip in January. Also about half the windows in the house are stained in between the panes, so it looks perpetually foggy outside. Been dealing with it for over 7 years, & it pains me to spend money on a house that the bank owns, so they will stay ... until I win the lotto & move the hell out of MA. ( don't hold your breath on that one ... :roll: )

Image
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: Dann757 On: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:21 pm

I'm working on an old house and have found Minwax Wood Hardener to be a good product. I saved an Anderson double casement by digging out a badly rotted outside sill and replacing it with pressure treated stock. The bad soft wood I couldn't dig out got a good dose of it. If you use it, pick up a quart of acetone to clean up with. I hit the window with a disposable brush, but you can clean it with acetone if you want to reuse it.

I have to face my next dilemma, my stove bakes this place dry. My humidistat can peg under 20% rh on the scale. I usually have a pan of water on top of the stove. Hope to find a humidifier that doesn't leave white mineral dust.
Dann757
 

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: coalkirk On: Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:08 pm

Does your dryer vent outside? Do you have and use bath exhaust fans? Are your sure your humidity gauge is accurate? It's hard to believe condensation on the inside of even an old single pane window with RH in the 20's and 30"s.
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: av8r On: Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:08 pm

Get some of the shrink plastic used to seal windows on the inside for the winter. Easy to apply, shrink with a hair dryer and the problem goes away. You also don't get the convective currents of cool air rolling off the windows all winter.
av8r
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Hearth with twin turbos (sounds like it)
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: Hearth model with twin turbos

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: 009to090 On: Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:30 pm

Hurd windows are cr@p...
http://www.bobvila.com/wwwboard/message ... 16201.html


Hurd filed for Bankruptcy protection primarily due to the lawsuits relating to their poor quality windows and their failure to provide service under their warrantees. None of that is a surprise to those of us that have defective Hurd windows and doors.

I plan to file a claim in their bankruptcy proceeding. You can obtain a proof of claim form from the Bankruptcy Court. If you file a claim in their Chapter 11 case, you may only get a percentage of your claim as they reorganize, but you will have a Federal Bankruptcy Judge overseeing the case.

009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: Adamiscold On: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:17 am

If your glass isn't foggy in between the window panes then the chances are the gas in between is still good. Condensation can build up where a seal around the window has gone bad or if the insulation around the window wasn't put in properly. With out replacing the window there is three things you could try to improve your windows. You can replace the seals around your window, pop the trim off and re insulate around the window or cover it with that plastic that needs a hair dryer to tighten it up. I've used all three methods to "fix" the same problem.
Adamiscold
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: qbwebb On: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:21 pm

Thanks for all the reply's guys, some great ideas thrown out here. The RH meter on my multi meter usually agrees with the thermostat RH meter within 5%, but I will walk around the house w/ the meter and see how it changes. I did do heat shrink plastic last year to cut down on fuel oil consumption and that did solve the condensation issue, was hoping I could forgo that this year w/ the new Stoker install.

The class action suit on HURD windows is for the mirror finish coated kind which I don't think I have. Even still after reading it looks like they went bankrupt in 2008 and reorganized to absolve themselves from warranty claims. I am not sold the problem is entirely the window though, I think I need to experiment w/ a few methods to avoid doing shrink plastic sheeting every year,

- new weather seal that compresses when the casement window latch is drawn in

- put some of that gray play- dough like non permanent caulk like stuff in the crack of the window just above the compressing weather seal. (this should hopefully tell me how the heat is leaking out of the house, convecting in air passing through the old seal or conducting through the window frame that may or may not have a thermal break)

- Pull a piece of trim off and see how well the frame is insulated

- somewhere else I read to dry it out really well and put down a bead of silicone where the glass meets the wood.
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qbwebb
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: VF3000

Re: condensation on room side of Thermal pane casement windows

PostBy: Adamiscold On: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:09 am

I would just use some caulk instead of silicone, but I wouldn't use that fast drying stuff because it shrinks to much. I would try it around your window and on the wood joints there looks to be a little opening. Also a good sanding and a fresh coat of paint might not hurt either to form a nice new seal on the wood.
Adamiscold
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School