NO DRAFT...

NO DRAFT...

PostBy: CoalBurner5 On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:11 pm

Okay guys, so we fixed the pipe issue. We put it directly into the terracota (chimney) which is lined with brick as well. Checked the draft and didn't gain anything. Draft at firebox door is .01 and draft at breech is still .03ish (if i'm lucky). I climbed the roof the other day and the chimney is hit with wind prior then the house. Chimney does not go over the height of the house, but it is still 40ish feet up. I checked at the top of the chimney for heat and it hot. WHY NO DRAFT?

The only possible problem that i can think of is that the chimney is not high enough. Barometric draft is not moving as we do not have any down draft. Just not a good pull of air from the firebox up the chimney.

Suggestions?
CoalBurner5
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520 Dual Fuel

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: WNY On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:55 pm

well, you could have TOO much volume in your chimney to create a good draft, it not rising fast to create draft or not a lot of heat output from your boiler. Do you have an output temp of your flue going into your chimney? You are at least getting SOME draft .01-.03.

maybe put some type of cap or directional top cap to keep the wind from trying to downdraft.
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: MoBe On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:09 pm

also being that your flue does not go over the highest peak of the house you could be experiencing a down draft just enough to give you some to little draft just not enough to do anything with. air currents created by the roof line of your house, neighbors houses, trees, and hills nearby can cause problems. even the shape of the flue at the very top can help with eliminating down drafts... I have some old information on this in a 1929 American Standard Ideal Fitter book but I am not in a location at the time to quote.
MoBe
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 130, Stokol Stoker, Gentleman Janitor
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: American Standard, National, Burnham, US National
Stove/Furnace Make: American Standard
Stove/Furnace Model: Red Flash #3-9, Red Flash #2-7

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: stoker-man On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:40 pm

Do you trust the draft meter?
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:43 pm

CoalBurner5 wrote: 8<... Chimney does not go over the height of the house, but it is still 40ish feet up. I checked at the top of the chimney for heat and it hot. WHY NO DRAFT?

The only possible problem that i can think of is that the chimney is not high enough. Barometric draft is not moving as we do not have any down draft. Just not a good pull of air from the firebox up the chimney.

Suggestions?


Standard is 2 feet higher than any part of the structure/roof with in a 10 foot radius than the top of the chimney.

Could you please tell us the internal measurements of your chimney and the size of the metal chimney pipe. Sorry if you told us before but you've got four threads active regarding your problem getting your 520 fully operational.
  • From one of the eariler posts in your second thread, you said you have two Ts installed in your approximately 8-9' of internal chimney pipe. T's rob draft, elbows not so much as Ts.
  • Then there's the configuration of your piping and the concerns that Berlin outlined about turbulence of this config scrubbing off available draft. If you could upload some pictures, it would certainly help.
  • You stated your 520 is it a new install of an older unit. I don't know the intricate workings of an EFM but could something be blocked internally? Are you dumping your fines often?
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: CoalBurner5 On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:03 pm

Sorry about all the threads, i guess i'm just trying to get everyone's attention. I bought an older EFM 1980's from a guy that refurbishes them. He told me that it was good to go and that he just unhooked it off a unit. Pressure test and everything works perfect. The only problem is draft. It's up and running and gives me sulfur smell.

I test the draft at door it is .01 if i'm lucky and .03 at the breech.

There is nothing within the probably 25 feet radius of the chimney cap. AND I MEAN NOTHING. There are trees around the house, but i'm in the process of having them logged (rainy weather here is causing that process to take longer than i wanted).

This is starting to get expensive as i'm heating this whole house with oil and the efm oil gun isn't the most efficient thing out there.

I'm just at a loss of words and don't know what to do next.
CoalBurner5
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520 Dual Fuel

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: CoalBurner5 On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:05 pm

forgot to mention that i tried the candle trick at the end of the barometric damper. Yes it is pulling, BUT BARELY AT ALL. Not much of a pull at all going out of the house. I just don't understand.
CoalBurner5
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520 Dual Fuel

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: titleist1 On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:47 pm

Did you mention the size of your chimney flue somewhere before, 8" square, 12" square, etc?
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:08 pm

Don't worry about too many posts - I was just trying to tie a few points together from the others.

CoalBurner5 wrote: 8<... Chimney does not go over the height of the house, but it is still 40ish feet up. I checked at the top of the chimney for heat and it hot. WHY NO DRAFT?

The only possible problem that i can think of is that the chimney is not high enough. Barometric draft is not moving as we do not have any down draft. Just not a good pull of air from the firebox up the chimney. Suggestions?

:? A barometric damper isn't designed to control a down draft. That's a positive pressure draft and you don't want any of that. Since you have -.03 (negative="pull of air from the firebox up the chimney") measured draft and the barometric damper is set to -.04, then the damper should not be open. It would open only when the chimney is drafting greater than what the baro damper is set at: at -.06 chimney draft & the baro set at -.04 it should be open.

CoalBurner5 wrote:..8<...There is nothing within the probably 25 feet radius of the chimney cap. AND I MEAN NOTHING. There are trees around the house, but i'm in the process of having them logged (rainy weather here is causing that process to take longer than i wanted).

This is starting to get expensive as i'm heating this whole house with oil and the efm oil gun isn't the most efficient thing out there.

I'm just at a loss of words and don't know what to do next.

Your'e running your 520 on oil? When you were measuring the draft, was that with a coal fire burning or was the pot out? If it was with the oil on line only and burning, -0.1 to -.03 seems to be bracketing a normal oil burner forced draft.

Sounds like the 2' higher then the closest object, house, roof or otherwise is satisfied.
    .
  • Are the trees taller than the chimney/house? I had a similar problem with a wood burner but they run the chimney much hotter than coal does
    • If the picture is a chimney not higher than your rooftop and tall trees nearby (just over 25' away), there could be considerable turbulence - especially in warmer damp weather. From this picture, your chimney top seems to be in a virtual 50' wide canyon that in warm weather could be troublesome
  • How much of the chimney's height has four sides exposed to the weather? How much of the rest of the chimney inside the house?
All the items you've listed over the four threads are forming a verbal picture of bunch of small but troublesome things that taken together could impede your chimney draft. Keep in mind that when it gets cold, chimney draft should increase.

Are pictures possible? We really need pictures.
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: CoalBurner5 On: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:23 pm

okay so i'm going to try to explain this as best i can. Coming out the house is a 8'' round duct work into the terracota (which is 7.5 inside square dimensions and bricked on the outside). The chimney is roughly 35 feet with 3 sides being exposed. The top 5 feet has all 4 sides exposed. There is a small cap on the top of the chimney which is bricked up about 5 bricks and has ALL FOUR SIDES OF THE CHIMNEY OPEN and a piece of stone across the top. The opens are about 10 inches high and 10 inches wide (they are big openings). The roof lines are not near the chimney, probably a good 15-20 feet from the chimney and NO WHERE NEAR the height of the chimney top. There are trees around the chimney but those trees are about to go (once the weather breaks and the skidder can get down the hill). My house does kinda sit down in a valley but still would think that this should be pulling enough air.

As for the draft readings. The draft readings were all taken over a coal fire.

I will attempt to get pictures, but probably won't happen until sunday or monday. I'm going to have a chimney guy come look at it to make sure that there is not something structurally wrong with the chimney.

Could there be something wrong or blocking the inside of the boiler preventing draft? Any way to check that?
CoalBurner5
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520 Dual Fuel

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: stoker-man On: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:04 am

The inside of the boiler is all open, so no worries there of a blockage. The rear part of the base has been cleaned out, right? There is no ash in any elbows, right? You can run without smoke on a neg. .04.

I can't remember all the things on the various threads, but with a neg. .04 draft at the breech, and an 8" flue, you should be able to run coal out of a sealed barrel, positioned 2 feet from the base, in 90 degree, humid weather. We had no problem doing that at efm and we were located on the north side of the mountain where the air flow was up during the day and down during the night.

Draft is measured on a warmed-up flue. You should have a little draft on a cold flue too. You could have too much air coming from the blower.

Are Yurky and Sons near you in Phillipsburg? They know their coal equipment.
stoker-man
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1981 efm wcb-24 in use 365 days a year
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Chestnut
Other Heating: Hearthstone wood stove

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: CoalBurner5 On: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:48 am

Coal bin is 2 feet away. It holds 1.5 tons. I used the cleanout lever about every other day and fine ashes come out.

The only other thing i can think of is the trees around the house. They are higher thant he chimney, and they are not to far away from the chimney (25ft). Hopefully this weekend with the weather clearing up the logger can get in there and eliminate that possibility.

I have a guy coming sunday to look at the flu to eliminate the flu as the problem.

Once i get their opinions, i'm going to go from there. Just a little frustrated. I've got 10 ton of coal here and i'm using oil.

Hopefully i can get this fixed this weekend or first part of the week.
CoalBurner5
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520 Dual Fuel

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: Razzler On: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:57 pm

Try opening a basement window an inch or two see if that helps your draft.
Razzler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: Buck

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:57 pm

Razzler wrote:Try opening a basement window an inch or two see if that helps your draft.


Been there** - good point! Could it be the basement is a little too tight? CoalBurner5, if you can keep an eye on your barometric damper's door when you do this, let us know how it behaves over a few minutes. The effect you should be looking for is the Baro's door should open and stay open more than it was. If that's what you see, read this thread.

    **Had a 300+ BTU/HR oil burner in a garage I built. Couldn't get more than -.01 draft on the meter no matter what. That was untill nature called and I when I opend the door, the meter swunt to -.05! I had to keep the window cracked to run the unit.
VigIIPeaBurner
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace

Re: NO DRAFT...

PostBy: CoalBurner5 On: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:41 pm

I am out of town for the weekend. The basement is definately not air tight. It is open and the air flows really well.

I'm almost convinced that the problem lies on the outside of the house with the trees that are about 20ft away. they are extremely high and hemlock/pine so NO wind is coming across the chimney. Hopefully the weather breaks and the skidder can get in and take them out.

I will check the barometric draft issue when i get in town on sunday... I will update again on Sunday... I will try to keep the same thread... Just please keep looking back to it AS YOU GUYS ARE MY LIFE LINE...

Thanks for all your ideas and thoughts... We'll figure it out.
CoalBurner5
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520 Dual Fuel