A Good or Not So Good Idea?

 
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nortcan
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Post by nortcan » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 12:02 pm

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:Norcan, your stove already has a secondary air inlet, totally cast iron and controlable too. I've usually kept it closed but recently began to open it when I start recharging.
When the damper is closed this port lets air into the secondary burn chamber inside the right side of the stove and then to the back secondary chamber . When the Vigilant is in updraft mode (damper open), the air is sucked into the main fire box chamber. There's always a little air feeding directly into the firebox from the glass in the to front doors. Like Harman glass windows, the gasket is only on the sides and top, the bottom does not have a gasket.

I wouldn't use this port in low fire/warm weather conditions. I'm concerned it saps too much draft under these low draft conditions. With it closed, the additional draft would draw O2 from beneath the fire and a more complete combustion. It's also the most direct path into the room from the fire box area so it would be the first source for CO to back draft, damper open or closed. Remember, the Vigilant was once a wood stove.
Hi vig11PB, this morning the T* on the stove top was 425*F. I did try to open the air control on the side and saw no change in the top burning and I did closed and opened it a few times to be sure of the testings. I waited a while between each try. The damper was closed. Then I lifted the top griddle just a little and instantly the blue flames arrived and stayed as long as I kept the top lid ajar. The reason for a channel for an over the fire air vent is that I would have it passing between the front plate(the steel plate replacing the front grille) and the hottest spot, the red hot coal bed to over heat the air entering the channel. It could be easier to ignite the gases with super hot air??? The air entering at the lower of the glasses is not very hot on my stove, probably because of that steel plate acting as a heat deflector a that point so I sealed them when testing all I could on the stove.
Nice to have others opinions


 
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Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 12:38 pm

The blue flames are not CO burning. They are hydrocarbon gasses. I don't think we'd be able to see any flame from CO combusting to CO2. I think that secondary air inlet isn't too helpful with coal, maybe more-so with wood.

After I add new coal, I routinely open the ash door for a few minutes. I never leave the stove! Been there & "done" that :o Once I see the original coal bed glowing a bright red, soon after a few blue flames will lick up over the grill (the part you've removed). At this point I can close the ash door and the rest of the gasses will ignite on top of the new coal. Sometimes like you do, I'll open the top and blow into it if the blue flames aren't present. It's temperature dependent - once it's going hot @ ~400* they will stay there until the thermostat really shuts down. During most of the long burn there will be a few dancing blue flames.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 8:22 pm

nortcan wrote:Hi, thanks for infos. If possible for you, can you post a photo of you air vent holes? I love your idea of igniting these gases at the load top. If they don't burn they go outside and their combustion heat is lost.
The Franco Belge is different than the typical batch loading stove, so adding air is easier.

If you look at the bottom of the door, I drilled the holes in the protruding flange that the door contacts. The door has to be open to see it. The holes are right at the level of the burning coal bed.

A further benefit is that the air entering keeps fly ash from settling at the bottom of the glass.

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Post by nortcan » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 9:10 pm

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:The blue flames are not CO burning. They are hydrocarbon gasses. I don't think we'd be able to see any flame from CO combusting to CO2. I think that secondary air inlet isn't too helpful with coal, maybe more-so with wood.

After I add new coal, I routinely open the ash door for a few minutes. I never leave the stove! Been there & "done" that :o Once I see the original coal bed glowing a bright red, soon after a few blue flames will lick up over the grill (the part you've removed). At this point I can close the ash door and the rest of the gasses will ignite on top of the new coal. Sometimes like you do, I'll open the top and blow into it if the blue flames aren't present. It's temperature dependent - once it's going hot @ ~400* they will stay there until the thermostat really shuts down. During most of the long burn there will be a few dancing blue flames.
At 8PM today, the stove was at 400*F and there were no blue flame after 12Hrs of burning. The damper closed I did opened the top lid just a little and instantly the blue flames arrived. Don't know the name of these gasses but if we burn them there should be a heat recovery,a small or big one but one .Better than leaving the majority of these gasses go to the pipe and try to burn them as much as possible.
.

 
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Post by nortcan » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 9:13 pm

franco b wrote:
nortcan wrote:Hi, thanks for infos. If possible for you, can you post a photo of you air vent holes? I love your idea of igniting these gases at the load top. If they don't burn they go outside and their combustion heat is lost.
The Franco Belge is different than the typical batch loading stove, so adding air is easier.

If you look at the bottom of the door, I drilled the holes in the protruding flange that the door contacts. The door has to be open to see it. The holes are right at the level of the burning coal bed.

A further benefit is that the air entering keeps fly ash from settling at the bottom of the glass.
Nice photo of your installation. I cannot see the holes you drilled.

 
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Post by sweeperman » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 9:30 pm

In my manual for my pine barren coal barron stove 30 to60% of the heat produced is in the combustion of volatile matter over the fuel bed controld by secondary air :?:

 
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Post by nortcan » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 9:45 pm

sweeperman wrote:In my manual for my pine barren coal barron stove 30 to60% of the heat produced is in the combustion of volatile matter over the fuel bed controld by secondary air :?:
Hi, is your srove made for bit or anthracite burning according to your manual? Very surprising to see a so high heat production. It helps me to decide if I go ahead with this over the fire air vent project.
Never hear of your stove so if possible for you to send us photos of it would be interesting.


 
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Post by sweeperman » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 9:48 pm

My stove can burn both but that info is for Anthracite

 
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Post by CoalChap » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 9:50 pm

nortcan wrote:
VigIIPeaBurner wrote:The blue flames are not CO burning. They are hydrocarbon gasses. I don't think we'd be able to see any flame from CO combusting to CO2. I think that secondary air inlet isn't too helpful with coal, maybe more-so with wood.

After I add new coal, I routinely open the ash door for a few minutes. I never leave the stove! Been there & "done" that :o Once I see the original coal bed glowing a bright red, soon after a few blue flames will lick up over the grill (the part you've removed). At this point I can close the ash door and the rest of the gasses will ignite on top of the new coal. Sometimes like you do, I'll open the top and blow into it if the blue flames aren't present. It's temperature dependent - once it's going hot @ ~400* they will stay there until the thermostat really shuts down. During most of the long burn there will be a few dancing blue flames.
At 8PM today, the stove was at 400*F and there were no blue flame after 12Hrs of burning. The damper closed I did opened the top lid just a little and instantly the blue flames arrived. Don't know the name of these gasses but if we burn them there should be a heat recovery,a small or big one but one .Better than leaving the majority of these gasses go to the pipe and try to burn them as much as possible.
.
Nortcan,

I haven't been burning coal for very long, but I have noticed on the vigilant II the front grill, which you removed, acts as a secondary air return as you have explained. The hot air from the front of the coal bed is directed over the top of the coal bed and ignites the blue flames. This also has the benefit of directing the hot air across the glass, which is a very good conductor of heat into the room.

Even though this hot air can "escape" from the side, and not be forced through the whole bed (which I remember reading was your reason for removing it), I haven't had any problems with the whole bed burning well. Front to back, bottom to top is all glowing nicely.

Just my observation with my setup. Maybe I'll change my mind, but for it's working well for me. :)

 
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Post by Pete69 » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 10:45 pm

On the VigII the secondary air flap opens into the heat exchanger on the side and back of the stove. If it was functioning as intended, you would not see the gases ignite over the fire, like you are looking for, but in the secondary combustion chamber/ heat exchange in the rear of the stove. Remember that stove is one of the few hand fed stoves designed for hard or soft coal.
The Warm Morning stove was another design I liked. It had air channels made of molded firebrick in the corners of the stove that brought a portion of the air from under the grates to above the fire.
The Riteway was another neat design. that forced the gasses back down over the fire bed before allowing it to exit the flue.
Last edited by Pete69 on Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 10:55 pm

nortcan wrote:Nice photo of your installation. I cannot see the holes you drilled.
Here is a pic with the door open. The grates are removed and you are looking at the ash pan. The holes are in the cast iron flange that the door seats on.

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Post by nortcan » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 11:08 pm

franco b wrote:
nortcan wrote:Nice photo of your installation. I cannot see the holes you drilled.
Here is a pic with the door open. The grates are removed and you are looking at the ash pan. The holes are in the cast iron flange that the door seats on.
Thanks for all the work you did. I didn't know you would have to remove the grates and stop the fire, sorry for that.
Salutations

 
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Post by nortcan » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 11:11 pm

Hi coalchap, one of the reasons I removed the front grille is because too much air is by-passing the bed to go the easiest way. I saw photos of Vig 11 with the front grille in a very bad shape due to an excess ot heat in the front part of the stove I think you name that warping. If you examine to the best working stoves like Glenwood, Chubby... they all have closed around fire chambers. That is for the primary combustion. The others reasons were the ash directed on the glasses by that air coming from the front grille and pieces of anthracite falling through that grille. When opening the doors it was much dirtier than now. Now the glasses stay much cleaner and don't need cleaning,rubing as I read for some others. Plus the grille I placed on the top of the plate stops a lot of poping anthracite and it makes the loadind a charm: just dump the load no anthracite going between the doors and the grille as before.
I never could have the house as warm as now with less anthracite: if you see the pail I use in the video, it contains 13 pounds when very full. I usually refill with about 7 or 8 pounds for a steady 450*F for 12Hrs without touching anything. The house is 2100Sq Ft total on 3 levels and the Temp. is almost the same everywhere in the house( must tell I have a quite special air moving ducting and a well insulated house but it was exactly as that before I did the modifs so I compare oranges with oranges).
An other improvement I saw is that the stove is always previsible, I mean I do always the same things and the stove does always the same work, cold or warmer outside temp. No MPD, no baro. My wife never touch the stove during day time.
The idea of the over the fire air vent was to have advices, suggestions from readers so I thank you and all the others.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 11:31 pm

nortcan wrote:Thanks for all the work you did. I didn't know you would have to remove the grates and stop the fire, sorry for that.
Hi Nortcan. No I did not put out the fire. The stove is not running now. In its place I am trying A small Buderus stove. I installed another chimney upstairs and am running a Godin stove there. With two stoves I wanted something smaller downstairs. Plus I get to try a few more stoves.

I like very much what you have done and are doing with your stove. Your thought and patience I think will help us all.

 
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Post by Pete69 » Fri. Dec. 03, 2010 11:39 pm

I suggest that you run the stove for a couple days with the secondary air flap open and report back with the results. You may need to readjust the rear air flap to open a little more, because you would be robbing some draft for secondary air.
A short trial period before making modifications wouldn't hurt. Although I'm looking forward to see how future mods work out.


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