I'm thinking of going back to natural gas

av8r · By: **av8r** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:49 pm

europachris wrote: And I'm paying $375/ton for bagged Blaschak. ]

Wow...$375 a ton?!!!??

I paid $312 for 2400 pounds.

freetown fred · By: **freetown fred** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:57 pm

not a revolution--like Bob said--the hook or re-hook--how do you get people back :angel:

I think unfortunatly it's all a no win situation for the consumer--when the energy people have you by the gonads,they've got you by the gonads---deisel,gas,kero,coal,oil,ng or wood--yea,even wood--used to be $80.00 a full cord 10 yrs ago,it's up to $200.00 or more today picked up--by the way--me too--where the heck you been brckwlt

brckwlt wrote:Hello to you Hambden bob

I just looked at an old bill from Ugi from early 2009 and my price to compare was .98 cents per ccf. Now it is roughly .65 cents a ccf. And those prices don't include distribution charges and there other charges they nail you for.

Either way for me coal is still cheaper. A lot cheaper. Whith the old 2009 price I was saving roughly 2500 a year. So unless ng goes down to about .40 cents a ccf I'll stick with coal.

But like bob said by then everyone and their brother will be using ng and the price will sky rocket again.

There is One thin I don't understand before I told Ugi to take a hike in October of 2009 they were going to raise their rates about 10 to 15 percent for the next years heating season.

Has there been a ng revolution ?

leowis1 · By: **leowis1** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:10 pm

My energy supplier is PECO. Normally, I would get a coal refill sometime in late January or early Feb. Not this year. When the coal finishes I switch over to NG. I'm sure I won't be the only person doing this. Then they'll be a huge inventory of coal. They'll have to drop the price to clear it out. The coal gods are stupid for not pricing right. Coal has to be priced at least 35% less than NG to entice people to use it. Right now, for me, its about 22% cheaper than NG.

But I do agree that this is a trap set by the NG suppliers. Get people addicted to NG and then $ock it to them.

freetown fred · By: **freetown fred** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:22 pm

there's a pretty simple concept of us supposed to be learning from history,but,it seems as a country,we never do.What the heck is that about--or is that little ditty of info even taught anymore

jeromemsn · By: **jeromemsn** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:51 pm

It's not necessarily the N/G producers that cause the price to go up. It's all the middlemen, more and more middlemen. Just like the Health care system, middlemen. I know they call them Investors that have to see a return on there money but sheesh.

coal berner · By: **coal berner** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:08 pm

leowis1 wrote:Hello--I've been burning coal for 5yrs now. I installed my efm520 stoker the summer after katrina. My house is hooked up for dual fuel; natural gas and coal. I heated with gas in November because it was too warm for coal. Looking at my gas bill it appears that I'm paying $1.10 per CCF. My coal supplier raised their prices and by the time the coal gets delivered into my basement I'm paying $236.5 per ton. Doing the math to convert coal btus to natural gas, I am paying .89 cents per CCF. Or I'm saving .19 per CCF. That's about $400 per year.

I'm not sure if that's worth it? I think I used to save around $1000 per year. Please tell me that I'm doing my math wrong. Is anybody else thinking about going back to natural gas? Thanks.

Leo

Anthracite Coal at 240 a ton = Natural Gas at 1.05 per therm at 100.000 BTU PER Therm at 85% Efficiency
Anthracite coal per ton will Range from 24 million btu to 29 Million btu at 80% to 85% Efficiency

Rob R. · By: **Rob R.** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:07 pm

Leo, have you considered buying a TT load to improve your cost per ton?

Do you notice any differences in comfort by running the EFM vs. the NG? My dad would run his EFM even if it was the same cost as fuel oil because he likes the quiet operation, the unlimited hot water, and the warm basement. He also met some nice people in Coal Country and likes to support the area.

-Rob

coalkirk · By: **coalkirk** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:45 pm

markviii wrote:Leo, have you considered buying a TT load to improve your cost per ton?

Do you notice any differences in comfort by running the EFM vs. the NG? My dad would run his EFM even if it was the same cost as fuel oil because he likes the quiet operation, the unlimited hot water, and the warm basement. He also met some nice people in Coal Country and likes to support the area.

-Rob

Good points. I'm still burning $165.00 per ton coal from my TT load a couple years ago. I'll be burning it next year and part of the following year. I like being "locked in" for the cost of my heating for a 5 year period. Also I like having my fuel already here and not having to come through a pipe. Natural gas has always been a very reliable fuel but that can change. Ask all the hotels and resorts in Florida how well their natural gas standby generators worked after Andrew. No we're not likley to have a devastating hurricaine but tornadoes, earth quakes, acts of terrorism/sabotage could always occur. I always keep lots of extra beer on hand also. 8-)

leowis1 · By: **leowis1** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:04 pm

I live in a borough and do not have a lot size to accomondate a TT. I also do not have a vehicle large enough to haul coal myself. The boiler does run beautifully. It warms the basement and the floor boards on the 1st floor. By far, a better quality of heat. I paid around $6000 when I installed it for the boiler, plumbing, and chimney liner. I believe I'm very close to my buy back. I may have already passed it?

I take such a beating from people that I know who think I'm crazy for burning coal. For the last few years, I shrugged them off because I was saving big money. Now it seems as though they're right. Saving $400 a year insn't worth the BS I put up with. I'm sure in the next year or two NG prices go up making coal an attractive alternative.

Rob R. · By: **Rob R.** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:10 pm

Who cares what everyone else thinks when you are the one sitting in a warm house? Dry basement, warm floors...that is certainly worth something to me. Shutting down my coal boiler is like saying goodbye to an old friend.

-Rob

Wood'nCoal · By: **Wood'nCoal** On: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:52 pm

It's a moot point for me, no NG mains here. It's electric, propain, oil, pellets, wood, or coal. Guess who wins?

europachris · By: **europachris** On: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:19 am

Hambden Bob wrote:Well,we knew this was coming. In doing the math,you're right,Chris,at this time Natural Blackmail Gas is extremely cheap. And that's the hook,or should I say,REHOOK. Get everyone back on board with gas at home,conduct a rub and suck fest with the EPA using gas to generate electricity and then lets run our buses,cars and trucks on it. Beautiful...Absolutely Green Party Beautiful ! But wait,like that old mule skinner Freetown Fred said...there's the law of supply and demand. Suddenly,I'm sorry,but we're running a little short this year on our gas inventories. Speculators show up at the futures market and bang,you're right back at the reason you rediscovered coal in the first place. I know I can't store a heating season's worth of Natural gas on my property. I sure as hell can with coal. Price spikes,quality issues,and budget issues solved. By the way,nice clean set-up,Chris. And,hello Brockmeister !

That's exactly the reason I'm doing what I'm doing, Bob! I was feeling a little loose in the rear end after my 1" copper plumbing purchase yesterday and as I was driving home I thought to myself how I'll be the one laughing when NG goes through the roof someday. It's a limited resource like oil - it's just not as limited (or controlled by OPEC) as oil right NOW - but someday......

europachris · By: **europachris** On: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:21 am

av8r wrote:
europachris wrote: And I'm paying $375/ton for bagged Blaschak. ]

Wow...$375 a ton?!!!??

I paid $312 for 2400 pounds.

Yeah, it just went up, again. Actually, I think it was up this high when gas/diesel prices went wacko two years ago, but came back down. Now it's going up again because why? Yep, diesel is way up again, and we are way far from NEPA.

Richard S. · By: **Richard S.** On: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:59 am

I've seen it happen many times, everyone gets complacent..... then BAM you get a Katrina event or the meteoric rise in energy prices like we saw in 2007.

Next thing is people are on a list to get a boiler with expected delivery in one year.

LiftedAWDAstro · By: **LiftedAWDAstro** On: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:57 am

leowis1 wrote:I heated with gas in November because it was too warm for coal. Looking at my gas bill it appears that I'm paying $1.10 per CCF. My coal supplier raised their prices and by the time the coal gets delivered into my basement I'm paying $236.5 per ton. Doing the math to convert coal btus to natural gas, I am paying .89 cents per CCF. Or I'm saving .19 per CCF. That's about $400 per year.

With NG, do you know the price for the next months bill beforehand? If not, you know they will raise the price during winter as the demand goes up. How do you protect yourself? In your case, keep a couple tons of coal on hand so you can switch between depending on cost.

As for me it is a no-brainer. I have an oil furnace that is 80% efficient. So, I will use coal unless oil gets back to about $1.50 a gallon. I also keep the house 3-4 degrees warmer with the coal.

I'm thinking of going back to natural gas

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