CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:25 pm

Ethanol is about 2/3 the energy of gasoline. If you're buying a 10% blend every 15 gallons the government spent $1.78.

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=11477

The costs to taxpayers of reducing consumption of petroleum fuels differ by biofuel. Such costs depend on the size of the tax credit for each fuel, the changes in federal revenues that result from the difference in the excise taxes collected on sales of gasoline and biofuels, and the amount of biofuels that would have been produced if the credits had not been available. The costs to taxpayers of using a biofuel to reduce gasoline consumption by one gallon are $1.78 for ethanol made from corn and $3.00 for cellulosic ethanol. The cost of reducing an equivalent amount of diesel fuel (that is, a quantity having the same amount of energy as a gallon of gasoline) using biodiesel is $2.55, based on the tax policy in place through last year.
Richard S.
 
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:16 pm

10% is what they tell you. The reality is, at least in MA, is that some unscrupulous stations have 20% ethanol, or more! The average moron wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but any motorhead can immediately tell. Less power, & poor mileage.

I had these symptoms on my brand new truck ('07 Silverado, FlexFuel 5.3) ... so I threw the scan tool on it when I got home, after driving 20 miles since filling up. Scan tool read 19.6% alcohol content!! That was just one time I threw the scanner on. Probably 100 stations that do this. One thing though, they are all located in and closest to Worcester, MA. Maybe the city has some backroom mandate on this for clean air, to keep the hippies happy? You never know in this state .. :mad:
SMITTY
 
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:42 pm

SMITTY wrote: One thing though, they are all located in and closest to Worcester, MA.



Gasoline in any given area all comes from the same pipe. Each company blends it's own additives before final delivery. I know ethanol is highly corrosive to steel but I wouldn't imagine it's blended afterward because of the enormous quantities.
Richard S.
 
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: SMITTY On: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:51 pm

The reason why I think this is due to my own experience. There's a certain Hess station outside Worcester that I always experience poor mileage/poor power with ... then there's another in Worcester that I believe is even worse. My wife's mileage figures confirmed it. She lost 3 mpg just by filling up there ... and they were the cheapest in all of central MA. Go figure. Offer a lower price ... but you get less bang for the buck. Bait & switch is what it looks like to me, and most are none the wiser.

The thing is, it's never consistent. Some times I'll fill up there, & the truck performs great -- and the mileage is where it should be. Others, it takes a nosedive. This one station I used to hit weekly when I was working. At least 2 fill-ups out of 5 would be poor fuel. But then, it would be great for months on end.

There's a Hess station near my house that I have filled up at several times, and never experienced these conditions. So either the Hess company is dousing their city stations with ethanol to make a profit, or the suburban stations get a better quality fuel. Or they're getting rid of their substandard fuel from all over in random stations so nobody will catch on.

Either way, there is definitely something going on here.
SMITTY
 
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: whistlenut On: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:01 am

Remember "Back in the Day" when we all had a buddy who owned a Sunoco Station and he would break the seal on the octane selector, and 260 would become 300 plus. No fricking ethanol.....another enormous 'earmark' for the corn belt.
Back then the "LOUD Petal" verified the octane numbers and the compression ratio.....the good ole days. Sure did not like the tires though.
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: SMITTY On: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:04 am

Better cars, better fuel, less whiners, less people on the public dole ......... I need to get to work on a time machine, then smash it once I get back there. 8-)
SMITTY
 
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: Richard S. On: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:07 am

SMITTY wrote: Bait & switch is what it looks like to me, and most are none the wiser.


Hmm, you may be onto something:


http://zfacts.com/p/438.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


But the reason blenders (and gas stations) will pay (after subsidies) the same for ethanol is because they can sell it at the same price as gasoline to consumers. A consumer will pay the same for ten gallons of E10 as for ten gallons of gasoline even though the E10 contains a gallon of ethanol. Virtually all consumers are willing to pay the same for the gallon of ethanol for three reasons. (1) They often don't know there's ethanol in their gasoline. (2) There is often ethanol in all the gasoline because of state requirements, so they have no choice. (3) They never know the ethanol has only 2/3 the energy of gasoline and gets them only 2/3 as far.


If they are getting the ethanol for the same price per gallon you're getting ripped compared to the 10%.
Last edited by Richard S. on Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added link
Richard S.
 
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: Richard S. On: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:10 am

whistlenut wrote: No fricking ethanol.....another enormous 'earmark' for the corn belt.


This $1.78 doesn't include the farm subsidies AFAIK.
Richard S.
 
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: SMITTY On: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:21 am

It's actually even worse than that, after you factor in the fact that ethanol has less BTU's per gallon than straight gasoline. Less bang per gallon .... but your paying for gasoline. Might sound like a conspiracy theory, but I suspect this is the reason behind it. And I wouldn't be surprised if state officials have their fat grubby fingers in this. Would be the ultimate "hidden" tax. I expect nothing less from a state that elected a Kennedy to office for nearly 5 decades. :roll:
SMITTY
 
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: Duengeon master On: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:17 am

Ethanol costs more to make than Gasoline.It has less btu and as a result less mileage.
All gasoline is the SAME the laws are so strict It is only made in a few places so Richard is correct. Its refined in one spot and sent via pipeline to a specific area. I drove a gasoline truck for a couple of years. Exxon. Shell Texaco. Mobil all come out of the same pipe at the rack.
Ethanol is a waste of time money and pollution. It is required because It is just another way for the liberals to control us. and for their buddies to make a fortune on it. It's not environmental control, it's people control. The sooner you figure it out the sooner we will get our liberties back! It's all about control. Follow the money!!!!! Btw who do you think is paying for all these subsidies on ethanol???? Obama? where is he getting the money for it, FROM HIS STASH????
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: samhill On: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:14 am

I would think that your off on the cost per gal., at least around here & from all i`ve heard elsewhere the farmers are getting near record prices foe their corn. Due to a worse than expected crop in the mid-west, if the price of corn goes up so would the price of ethanol I would imagine. I could never figure out why they insist on using a food crop since it can be made from other plants, theres money being made under the table all along the process.
I found this looking around a bit, its mostly about enviromental impact but there are other bits of information in there, like how much BP is making. http://www.ewg.org/agmag/2010/12/top-10 ... ax-credit/
Also & not to cause any trouble but to give credit where credit is due.http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/s ... 01488c.htm
And it has continued thru the years on both parties.
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: Bratkinson On: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:06 pm

I, too, have been screwed by the ethanol ripoff in MA.

I used to travel to Albany occassionally, and when filling up with NY gasoline vs MA gasoline, I suddenly got 2-3 more MPG! I managed to 'get by' on gas in CT as they didn't have ethanol, either...until a couple of years ago. Even with the 15-20 cent higher price in CT (highest gas tax in the country if I recall), the extra MPG more than offset the extra dollars.

But one thing this discussion has missed...that of seasonal adjustment. As of NOV 1, give or take, all gas in the colder regions of the country have had additives to lower the flash-point to improve cold weather starting. Also, some level of gas de-icer is also added to prevent freeze-up (I haven't poured a can of gas line de-icer in my tank in over 30 years!). Both of these additives knock about 1.5 mpg off my normally 19+ mpg minivan. Nowadays, the high 17s is all I get for mileage. Come spring, lower 19s. Just like clockwork.

And for those old enough to recall the Shell gasoline advertisements with Platformate (and later on, TCP...Tri-chloro-platformate)....--ALL-- gas contains platformate...it's a byproduct of the "platformer" that separates oil into its components such as gas, fuel oil, diesel, kerosene, etc... So much for advertising... By the way...my father spent his entire career in the gasoline business, so he was the "horses' mouth", so to speak.
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: mof1964 On: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:54 am

My dad and I won a auto repair station and we still offer full service gas at the pump. We are still able to get and sell conventional gas in 87 octane.
We give the customers the option of the "good stuff" or the 10% ethanol. The younger crowd always takes the cheaper stuff but the older more knowledgable people want the ethanol free fuel. The ethanol free costs $.20 per gallon more.

The small engine shops have been sending all their customers for the ethanol free due to the fact that the ethanol is destroying the carbs on the small engines.

This fuel game that has been mandated by the government is a huge PITA.
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: labman On: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:15 am

Anyone that thinks alcohol is a viable fuel is dreaming. It takes 2.37 times as much alcohol as gasoline to produce a horsepower. And the colder the air temp, the worse it is. Add this to it's destructive reputation on metals; The increased cost of food due to corn being used for fuel driving up the price, and it becomes a real loser. Same for soybeans. Being used for upholstry foam padding has spiked the price/ reduced availability. Look at the price of corn oils. increased 30 percent.
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Re: CBO: $1.78 for Ethanol per Gallon of Gas Reduction

PostBy: SMITTY On: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:33 pm

Yeah, ethanol is very hygroscopic -- it loves absorbing, & mixing with water.

One of the main reasons I bought the Flex-Fuel Silverado was the corrosion resistant fuel system. Not one drop of E-85 has ever been run in my truck, nor will it ever be -- unless I make it myself.
SMITTY
 
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