Advice on Franco Belge 10.1475

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: Freddy On: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:47 pm

I have a friend with a Franco, it's an older model I think, but sounds like the same innards. He found his grates needed a bit of attention. From the factory there was "extra" cast iron that made some of the slots quite narrow. Some were less than 1/8". He gently used a thin disc wheel grinder thingy and made all the slots the same size. It made a HUGE difference in how it burns and in how it shakes down. He's burning pea size coal, hopper thing on lowest setting, knob on 2. For weeks and weeks he couldn't get it to go over 6 hours, now it will go 12...most of the time. Once in a while it's out after 12 hours, maybe once every 2 weeks. Each 12 hours he fills it. It burns 12 to 14 pounds in that time, so about 25 pounds a day. If he asks it for more than 2 on the knob it won't go 12 hours.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: UpStateMike On: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:45 pm

[quote="rewinder"]*
Well if the stove is putting out good heat before it burns up the load, than I'd suspect too much draft, pulling the heat out of the stove. That why if you could determine there is a temp differential between the hottest part of the stove and the pipe down stream from the baro, you'd know if ther is or isn't too much heat going out the chimney. You said you have a baro, is it active during a hot burn ( swinging open some) or pretty much verticle? ) Did you set it with a manometer or just eyeball it? The baro should be introducing room air into the pipe, and the pipe should be much colder than the pipe just at the stove exit. Just like it does on an iol furnace or boiler. If no manometer set up you can slide the weight (depending what type of baro you have) to make the flapper swing in some to cool the exaust, and thus keep more heat in the stove. Then you can run the thermostat arm lower, giving you more time between fills.


Rewinder, that's the best description of how a baro works and how to set it I've seen so far. Nice. Short, easy to follow.

THANKS
UpStateMike
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Elmira Oval (in house)
Stove/Furnace Model: Round Oak d-18 (workshop)

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: capecoal On: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:16 pm

Paul/Richard,

Thanks for your tips. I am running it at a lower temperature and checking the Stack temps. I still cannot get the unit to stay lit overnight even on lower settings. You mention shake after 8 hours but I have to shake it at least every 3-4 hours or I have nothing but ash on the grates. My coal is very damp out of the bag but I thought that it should dry out once in the hopper.

Richard what do you mean by "slicing the grates"?

Joe
capecoal
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco belge
Stove/Furnace Model: 10-1475

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Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: rewinder On: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:20 pm

Hey Joe

You didn't say in your last post if there is a differential in pipe temps at the stove exaust pipe (right after the stove), and a few feet above the baro.

You're still burning up the load including the filled hopper in less than 8 hours??

You didn't say if the baro is opened at all, if it's just sitting there vertical.

What would you guess the total pounds of coal is in the stove including a filled hopper??

Paul
rewinder
 
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Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:37 pm

capecoal wrote:Paul/Richard,

Thanks for your tips. I am running it at a lower temperature and checking the Stack temps. I still cannot get the unit to stay lit overnight even on lower settings. You mention shake after 8 hours but I have to shake it at least every 3-4 hours or I have nothing but ash on the grates. My coal is very damp out of the bag but I thought that it should dry out once in the hopper.

Richard what do you mean by "slicing the grates"?

Joe


Slicing the grates refers to the practice of inserting a flat poker into the three slots provided on a Franco Belge stove and moving that poker across the grates to clear ash.You will find these slots after moving the shaker handles to the left. You should have the proper poker provided with the stove. Clearing ash in this way is frequently more effective than shaking. It depends on how easily a particular coal collapses into ash. Some coal tends to hold its shape and shaking does not effectively crush it enough to go through the grate openings. I believe the Surdiac stove uses this method only.

The next time the stove is cold (room temp.) lower the door covering the ash pan door and with a flashlight look at the little door on the right side that controls the air into the stove. With the thermostat dial set on 1 the flap should be closed, although on early stoves it was adjusted to be open about 1/4 inch when cold. If it is closed when set on 1 then probably somewhere between 4 and 5 is where the stove will work best. If the door is open when cold then a lower setting is best, probably around 3.

The firebox on this stove is about 6x16 inches which equals 96 square inches and the depth of the coal bed with the hopper set as high as it will go slants from about 6 inches down to 3 at the front. This is not very big and to get an extended burn the hopper has to feed a bit between shakes. This it will do if the coal turns to soft ash readily, but if the ash is a little harder, then very little feeding will occur between shakes. The grates have to free of ash and the thermostat setting for the night not too high. With this grate area the stove is really designed to burn about 2 pounds per hour max. or less if you expect to get long burn times.

If the stove is set up in an uninsulated basement in a not very tight house then I think you will be disappointed and need a stove with a larger grate area and deeper coal depth.

Richard
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: capecoal On: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:37 pm

HI Paul,

See my answers below your questions:

Hey Joe

You didn't say in your last post if there is a differential in pipe temps at the stove exaust pipe (right after the stove), and a few feet above the baro.
JOE: I dont have a thermometer on the stack but I do know (by touch) that the stack past the Baro. is much cooler than the pipe closer to the stove.

You're still burning up the load including the filled hopper in less than 8 hours??
JOE: No, I am not burning up the hopper load only coal which I shake down periodical;

You didn't say if the baro is opened at all, if it's just sitting there vertical.
JOE: From what I can tell is just stays vertical but does move somewhat during windy days. Nothing consistant. I have the type of dampler that has a screw type weight on the top and you turn the nut to adjust the damper on the fulcrum. Because it has not been moving I have the screw adjustment turned all the way to one extreme to try and facilitate its operation more easily (less pressure to operate the fulcrum gate).

What would you guess the total pounds of coal is in the stove including a filled hopper??
JOE: Specs. in the manual for the 10.1475 says it takes 50 lbs. and I assume that includes the burner box since I cannot get that much in the hopper . The most I can put in the hopper is just about 40lbs.

Paul
capecoal
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco belge
Stove/Furnace Model: 10-1475

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: capecoal On: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:50 pm

Hey Richard,

Please see my replys to yours below:

Slicing the grates refers to the practice of inserting a flat poker into the three slots provided on a Franco Belge stove and moving that poker across the grates to clear ash.You will find these slots after moving the shaker handles to the left. You should have the proper poker provided with the stove. Clearing ash in this way is frequently more effective than shaking. It depends on how easily a particular coal collapses into ash. Some coal tends to hold its shape and shaking does not effectively crush it enough to go through the grate openings. I believe the Surdiac stove uses this method only.
JOE: I understand now. Yes I have done this but I think I need a skinnier tool since the flat one I have (about 1/2 " in width)cannot fit the openings. Its interesting because when I first started the stove this season I could get the tool into the middle portal. Now that portal only opens half way and I cannot use it except with a smaller size iron which tends to get hung up in there.


The next time the stove is cold (room temp.) lower the door covering the ash pan door and with a flashlight look at the little door on the right side that controls the air into the stove. With the thermostat dial set on 1 the flap should be closed, although on early stoves it was adjusted to be open about 1/4 inch when cold. If it is closed when set on 1 then probably somewhere between 4 and 5 is where the stove will work best. If the door is open when cold then a lower setting is best, probably around 3.
JOE: Will do. I did this when I had the stove apart this fall. The door then was closed at position #1. I will recheck to verify.

The firebox on this stove is about 6x16 inches which equals 96 square inches and the depth of the coal bed with the hopper set as high as it will go slants from about 6 inches down to 3 at the front. This is not very big and to get an extended burn the hopper has to feed a bit between shakes. This it will do if the coal turns to soft ash readily, but if the ash is a little harder, then very little feeding will occur between shakes. The grates have to free of ash and the thermostat setting for the night not too high. With this grate area the stove is really designed to burn about 2 pounds per hour max. or less if you expect to get long burn times.
JOE: Your description sounds like my situation very little feeding between shakes and the coal in the bag is frozen when I bring it in from the garage and is quite moist (clumps of Ice) I am using 40lb bags of Pea Blaschak Antracite from PA. I was wondering about the height of the hopper on the adjustment pegs on either side. Right now its on the lowest pegs which is what I understand to be the correct setting for Pea Coal. Wonder what would happen if I went up a notch. This would create a wider feed area which would facilitate a better flow. Only problem it would mean taking the whole burn box apart.

If the stove is set up in an uninsulated basement in a not very tight house then I think you will be disappointed and need a stove with a larger grate area and deeper coal depth.

Richard
capecoal
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco belge
Stove/Furnace Model: 10-1475

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: franco b On: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:21 pm

My advice is to start over with an empty stove.

The correct poker is a bit wider than 5/8 inch and a bit less than 1/8 thick. You probably can't get it in because the shaker handles are not all the way to the left. Using your shaker tool give it a rap with the palm of your hand to move it. If you have the stove empty you can try it while looking inside to see what it does. You have a piece of coal stuck in the grate.

The correct position for the hopper is the highest notch on the bracket. See my picture. The stove is designed for pea coal only.

To avoid frozen coal bring an extra bag inside to thaw out while you are using the previous bag. Cut the top open to let it dry as well.

Richard
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you can even set it on top of the brackets to get a deeper bed
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franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: capecoal On: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:57 pm

Richard,

I will try your suggestions about the poker and the grate. Your picture is from the manual I have as well. If you look closely its contradictory. In the upper picture of the stove the lower hopper is in the bottom position but in the callout (balloon drawing) it shows it in the top position. The guy that installed my stove said it should be in the lower position and that the other setting are for larger coal. Are you sure you can only use pea coal in this stove, and if so why are there three positions for hopper height?

It seems logical to me that if the feed is a problem a higher setting might make sense. Its going to be a real pain to adjust the height now that the stove is all together.

Richard, I want to thank you for your help, as I have a better understanding of the stove.

Joe
capecoal
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco belge
Stove/Furnace Model: 10-1475

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: franco b On: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:38 pm

Joe,

The slots in the grate are designed for pea coal. You can burn chestnut if you want . I have done it when I have gotten some free coal, but with the narrow firebox it does not load the same quantity as with pea coal. I have no idea why they provided lower notches on the brackets, perhaps for use with some European coal. It might very well be that you got the stove for a bargain price because the previous owner also had poor performance because of improper set up.

Over 25 years ago I spoke with the importer of this stove and they even recommended that you set the hopper higher still, above the highest notch, right on top of the brackets. The hopper has to be high to get a deep bed and to encourage feeding.

Once the stove is cold all you have to do is reach in with two hands and raise the hopper to the highest position. Nothing to take apart. Should take less than a minute. You can then check out the action of the poker in the empty stove to see how it works.

Richard
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: rewinder On: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:12 pm

Joe,

Follow richards recomendations about the hopper height. After looking at the blow up of the stove, down low won't give you enough depth at the front tof the fire box. I'm using Reading pea, and the ash is stiffer that what I used before, so i had to raise the hopper throat up as higher to have more weight of unburned coal to squish the ash more for better feed and deeper fire mass (longer burn time with less burn back) I think you want to shoot for as high a coal level at the front as you can get, like Richard says.

I still think you should be able to get 8-10 hours of moderate burn levels . Granted my hopper and grates are different, but on my smaller resolute, I have to shake more than the vigilant, to keep the same higher burn levels. I don't understand from the blow up how the grates shake, mine rock, but I have the ability to slice across the grates with a long thin slicer "knife", and have to do that to really clear the grates for a high burn.

maybe richard can tell you about the franco, but after a 8-10 hour burn un tended, the coal in my hopper is only half empty---- till I shake and slice, clearing the ash and then the hopper is usually empty, but fire box is full. Running with the thermostatic flapper open after that for a while, the fire revives to a bright burn and I fill the hopper, set the thermostat back to where I had it and I'm done.

Sounds like the baro is cutting your draft OK, I think your biggest problem is a shallow coal depth because of the hopper height.

I tried some Blashac coal ant it seems to have less ash and a lighter less crunchy ash than the reading, and the hopper flowed down better-- more contant heat over time-- so next year I'll get blashac pea.

As for pounds per hour thinking, the way I look at it is if ya figure around 10,000 BTU per pound burning in a stove rated for 50,000BTU, 5 lbs per hour would have me stoking every 4-5 hrs on a really high burn, cause my hopper only holds 20-25lbs of coal (above the fire mass). This would be at a stove top temp of 700 or more I bet--- unrealistic, and a lot of work!! So my overnight burns that dump my hopper after shaking ( 8 hours elapsed time), and taking 20-25 lbs to re-fill, I'm only burning at about 3 lbs per hour--- averaging approx 24,000 BTU/hr. This scenerio is for a real cold night, starting out at 450-500deg at night. lows around 30 around 375. All this heats the house fine, but I'm doing it on 2 stoves at each end of an ell shaped house upstairs.

Sorry for the long ramble, keep us informed!

Paul


Keep at it, you'll get it to burn more more than what's in the active fire box I'm sure.
rewinder
 
Stove/Furnace Make: VT Castings--early models
Stove/Furnace Model: Vigilant, and Resolute

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: capecoal On: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:31 am

Hi Paul/Richard,

OK, I think we have the solution thanks to your helping out. Once the current burn is done I am going to elevate the hopper to a higher setting. This should be the solution based on all the great info. you guys have given me. I will let you know the outcome. It may not happen shortly since I need to make a road trip.

Paul, not sure where you live but there is a guy in Yarmouth that sells and delivers the Blashac coal. His name is Wayne Robinson 415-3600, good guy working hard to establish his new coal delivery business. Earlier this year he said that he had to wait to go down to Pennsylvania to get his coal, the demand is so great the mines could not keep up with it, so coal is not dead.

Thanks again guys and "stay warm"---------Joe
capecoal
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco belge
Stove/Furnace Model: 10-1475

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: kruppie On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:47 pm

Okay Guys
Here we go. I moved into a house with a FB 10.1475. I have burned a ton of coal so far this season. Just got another ton in from a different breaker. Weather turned foul here in east central PA. Stove got really grumpy. I tried everything, couldn't keep it lit, nearly ran down batteries in CO detectors. Finally got it going just as the weather moved out BUT with the thermostat knob floored, had been running at 6.5 to 7 now at 8. My question is these numbers mean nothing to me. Where can I find a procedeure to setup this knob, coorelating knob setting to heat exchanger temperature to fresh air damper position. I mean that is how the thing works. Also how do I know when I am overfiring? Somewhere the has to be a temperature of something that is some number? The stove is 30 years old and there probably is wear and in addition I messed with the linkage between the knobs box and the fresh air damper, it was set to extreme short and I midspanned it, good guess, maybe, if not worn. I called the local stove shop, spoke to stove nerd and asked him about the setup on the thermostat. Although he no longer sells them (replacement thermostats) he told me when he did he knew of no setup procedure. I also found a .PDF of the manual and I didn't find a setup procedure in it.
Thank You
kruppie
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Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:26 pm

[quote="kruppie"]Okay Guys
Here we go. I moved into a house with a FB 10.1475. I have burned a ton of coal so far this season. Just got another ton in from a different breaker. Weather turned foul here in east central PA. Stove got really grumpy. I tried everything, couldn't keep it lit, nearly ran down batteries in CO detectors. Finally got it going just as the weather moved out BUT with the thermostat knob floored, had been running at 6.5 to 7 now at 8. My question is these numbers mean nothing to me. Where can I find a procedeure to setup this knob, coorelating knob setting to heat exchanger temperature to fresh air damper position. I mean that is how the thing works. Also how do I know when I am overfiring? Somewhere the has to be a temperature of something that is some number? The stove is 30 years old and there probably is wear and in addition I messed with the linkage between the knobs box and the fresh air damper, it was set to extreme short and I midspanned it, good guess, maybe, if not worn. I called the local stove shop, spoke to stove nerd and asked him about the setup on the thermostat. Although he no longer sells them (replacement thermostats) he told me when he did he knew of no setup procedure. I also found a .PDF of the manual and I didn't find a setup procedure in it.
Thank You
kruppie[/quote

With the stove at room temperature the air flap should be closed or just slightly open with the dial set at 1. Adjust the link to conform to this. To burn about 40 pounds a day the dial should be set at 4 or 5. Experiment. At 4 I can hold my hand on the smoke pipe and burn about 30 pounds a day. I generally leave it at about 4.5. The thermostat is not something you need to constantly fiddle with. It will automatically open or close to maintain a fairly constant burn rate.

If you are firing the stove into a large chimney it will have trouble maintaining draft at low burn rates, although I have successfully used one in a large fireplace chimney by using two lengths of 5 inch pipe into the chimney, all the way would be better of course and if the fireplace is on an outside wall probably necessary. This is the price you pay with a stove with low stack temperatures.

You are overfiring if the stack temperature is very high and you sear your legs getting too close to the front. The length of the burn between shakes will also be short.

Loosing a fire is caused by inadequate draft or not clearing the ash from the previous burn. Use the poker in the slots provided to thoroughly clear the grates. Make sure the hopper is as high as it will go. Check the door seals by closing a dollar bill on them to see if it holds the bill.

The stove has a firebox size that will be happiest burning about 40 to 50 pounds a day maximum. To burn more it has to burn hotter and with much shorter times between shakes.

Richard
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: franco belge 10.1475

PostBy: bperowski On: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:23 pm

I have a surdiac stove, and is simular to the one You have. The guage you run off of is only a guide. I run mine at 3-4 but I always look behind the stove to see how far the damper is open. I've been running this stove for 3 years now and still make this a habbit only because you don't want to be complacent. The thing that worrys me is the draft. You are burning too much coa; for your buck..... and working too hard for the heat. I have had my stove going for 2 and a half months now and cleaned it out for the first time since october. I cleaned the stove very well. then I got to the pipe leading out to the chimney....... What a mess!!!! Between the ash and the rust that accumilated from the ash, I barely had a draft. This could be one of your problems.....

Bruce
\
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