We want boiler pics

Sting wrote:http://www.bellgossett.com/literature/files/1195.pdf

Every install and every customers expectations are different - your request is far -- FAR to general.

My advice is to begin by understanding what you want - maybe read the link above so you understand what you asking for

Then do a search for the various books I and yanche recommend --- or just keep reading about boilers and the various systems folks have well documented in this forum

When you have specific questions - there are many hands here to help

Kind Regards
Sting

I think we are talking at crossed purposes here.

I need the schematics and the recommendations from the mfg (who is working on getting this information atm) so I can hand that off to the plumbers who will bid the job.

I understand every install is different, and I'm being general because I'm not requesting info from folks here on how to install this unit (I do my own plumbing but I don't have the tools or exp to work with cast), I'm merely tweeking Matt a little to finish the booklet for this unit.

I'm planning on having the install done around April, so that I can have the summer to get used to using coal instead of oil. But I would like the financing taken care of asap, just for my own piece of mind.

kstills wrote:I think we are talking at crossed purposes here.
(snip)
I'm merely tweeking Matt a little to finish the booklet for this unit.

You really do not fathom what your asking here do you Let me reiterate from aboooooove

"Every install and every customers expectations are different"

To expect an appliance manufacture to write "buy X and install as Y" is simply living in a fantasy life. Have you surfed about on these pages? Have you noticed any two installations with even similar load applications - and piping pictures here that even place the first and second fitting of a vessel flange, in the same orientation?

A book to install by the numbers --- Never going to happen. I have never even carried the same appliance into two basements the same way.

You have to understand what YOU want by teaching yourself what it will take to meet your demands - then find a plumber with a brain that can make heads or tails out of your dreaming.

OR:

Be the next victim of the lowest bidder you pay to wreck your basement.

Sting wrote:

kstills wrote:I think we are talking at crossed purposes here.
(snip)
I'm merely tweeking Matt a little to finish the booklet for this unit.

You really do not fathom what your asking here do you Let me reiterate from aboooooove

"Every install and every customers expectations are different"

To expect an appliance manufacture to write "buy X and install as Y" is simply living in a fantasy life. Have you surfed about on these pages? Have you noticed any two installations with even similar load applications - and piping pictures here that even place the first and second fitting of a vessel flange, in the same orientation?

A book to install by the numbers --- Never going to happen. I have never even carried the same appliance into two basements the same way.

You have to understand what YOU want by teaching yourself what it will take to meet your demands - then find a plumber with a brain that can make heads or tails out of your dreaming.

OR:

Be the next victim of the lowest bidder you pay to wreck your basement.

You may be correct.

However, Matt tells me he'll have something in another week or so, and every installer wants some guideline from them before bidding the job.

So, while I'm sure that it will not be all inclusive, it will more then likely establish some basics that the intallers (few of whom are familiar with solid fuel boilers) can use to help them determine what they'll need by way of parts and labor to get the job done.

Let me be clear on how my conversations with various installers have gone to date:

Me: Do you install coal hot water boilers?

Installer: (75%) Yes, I can do that. Do you have any information on the unit?

Me: No, I have a picture, and the mfg. is putting something together about the boiler within the next several weeks.

Installer: Call me when you have the information.

I couldn't get one in 10 to ball park an installation price without seeing the unit. I don't imagine that there is anything extraordinarily difficult about taking one boiler out and replacing it with another (for an installer) however I don't find fault with anyone requesting as much information as possible in order to provide a fair and accurate price estimate.

I know what I want, I want a 60 year old GE oil fired boiler kicked to the curb and replaced by a LL hot water boiler that burns coal. I just need some more info from LL in order to place the order.

kstills wrote:However, Matt tells me he'll have something in another week or so, and every installer wants some guideline from them before bidding the job.

Save each other a lot of work -- Increase the deliver cost of the appliance by 200 bucks and include The book Hydronic Heating by John Siegenthaler

there -- now you have something that few will understand - Less will actually read

the reason you cannot get a ball park on installation cost is detailed by that author and others that I believe more clear but less detailed.

The reason you "don't imagine that there is anything extraordinarily difficult about taking one boiler out and replacing it with another" is because you do not know what is involved, in the "simple task"

You are a common consumer.

Any instructions handed to an installer "unfamiliar" with the installation of an appliance will not be read anyway. The hack will simply fall back to what he did last time and you may or may not have a working heating system when he leaves.

YOU and only you will need to step up here and be the traffic cop of your installation -- The city inspection department will not help you - the BBB will not help you - the lowest bidder will certainly not help you. Your on your own save for the kind folks that lurk on forums as this or the rare pipe dragger that has done this before. Should you find him-- Adopt him - feed him dinner - often- send his wife or favorite hooker flowers and candy - give his kids an IPOD, Wash his service truck. Place a cold six pack on the truck seat every night.

-- Do yourself a favor -- read a little - learn a lot - become an UNCOMMON consumer.

Sting wrote:

kstills wrote:However, Matt tells me he'll have something in another week or so, and every installer wants some guideline from them before bidding the job.

Save each other a lot of work -- Increase the deliver cost of the appliance by 200 bucks and include The book Hydronic Heating by John Siegenthaler

there -- now you have something that few will understand - Less will actually read

the reason you cannot get a ball park on installation cost is detailed by that author and others that I believe more clear but less detailed.

The reason you "don't imagine that there is anything extraordinarily difficult about taking one boiler out and replacing it with another" is because you do not know what is involved, in the "simple task"

You are a common consumer.

-- Do yourself a favor -- read a little - learn a lot - become an UNCOMMON consumer.

Hmm.

Since I'm new, I'll simply thank you for your help and wish you a good day.

Understood

I have suggested to folks that they have a nice day too and for reasons other than brotherly love.

But please find the grace and comfort of believing I am just attempting to relay an alternative view from this side of the service truck windshield.

Like Rodney Dangerfield says -- "Its a Jungle out there"

It is not my mission to Piss Off a new guy - My goal is to get you to a place, where you can get the bid you need and not simply accept some generic recommendation, that will be grossly misunderstood by a "plumber" who will do what he wants anyway-- and the rub is -->you may not know it until the system will not function.

Kind Regards
Sting

is that 60 year old boiler leaking ? beause i 'never seen one leak before, there built like a battle ship and about as heavy too

jim d wrote:is that 60 year old boiler leaking ? beause i 'never seen one leak before, there built like a battle ship and about as heavy too

No, it's not. I don't think that's possible (from what Ive seen and heard).

It was retrofit with a side mount Riello burner that someone mounted as a top down back before I bought the house. The burner is at ~82% efficiency, but I've been told the box is somewhat less then that (I haven't done the work to have it checked).

Over the last several years, I've been putting money into keeping it going including a new burner assembly last year. Given the direction that oil prices are headed and the age of both the burner and the box, I'm looking to have it replaced.

Initially, I was going to simply buy a wood stove, put it in the LR and radiate heat through the house (it's smallish, and pretty well insulated). Looking into the wood stoves I came across this website, and the rest, as they say, is history.

I found a local guy who regularly drives up to the mines and brings back trailer loads of coal (I'm in Bucks County, coal supply was an issue early on). He is an older guy, and was telling me about his dad starting the business back in the 1940's, so during our conversation I managed to ask (in a nice way) whether or not there was a son in the business. I was relieved to find out that there was, so coal is covered.

From poking around here, I found out about LL and their boiler. Matt and Dave couldn't be nicer or more accessible, and the overall opinion on this board was very positive about their products. So given I needed a boiler, and that I could get coal, and that the mfg of the boiler was both respected and local, it seemed a good way to go.

The next step is to determine who has the competence to do the installation, then figure out how to actually use the thing. Matt tells me it takes about two 20 minute phone calls, so that doesn't sound like to high a learning curve. Plus, when all is said and done, I get to keep hot water radiated heat, which is the best heat I've experienced over the years.

Yes sting that is my boiler. I know it only has 3/4" pex al pex between boilers but it is more than adequate for my btu needs and with the amount of baseboard I have I only run the boiler 150*F low to 165*F high with the high limit and dump zone set @ 200*F, which I only ever hit trying to test it. As far as the install goes, it works flawlessly.

We want pics, we got pics

So all I see an ash door to take out the ashes, so how do you light this thing up ? Through the Hopper ? Through the Oil Gun, Or through the damper, excuse my ignorance, I am not sure if the beer making me visually impaired or I can not see a place to start a fire for this cute big gizmo

You can start it through the ash door or through the viewing glass, where you would mount the oil gun or gas burner. It starts up pretty easy although I have only has to lite it twice. Th einitial lieing and once for an inspection and cleaning.

Kstills, welcome..

What Sting is saying is that here on the forum, we have seen many instalations that were done by supposedly knowledgable plumber/installers. But the instalation had many problems and not perform properly..

What we end up doing on the forum to help the homeowner figure out what is wrong with the instalation and why the boiler is not performing correctly, is to educate the homeowner either by recommending the book that Sting recommended, or to piece by piece, photo by photo labor through a diagnosis.. not something easy to do over the internet..

So Sting was recommending a very good book, and for you to read up on boiler systems and plumbing of a boiler.. so that you could help yourself and also do a better job figuring out which plumber you want to do your instalation.

From my standpoint, there should really be no need for explicit instructions for a plumber to give a rough quote.. no quote will be accurate except for the one that is doubled, just to cover unknowns.. a plumber needs only to look at at the current old boiler, the condition of the piping, location of chimney, and the rough dimensions of the new boiler.. the rest is an estimate of the anticipated number of hours on the job and a rough idea of the parts/fittings needed..

The LL boiler from what Matthaus told me comes complete.. only a flue, electrical supply, and supply and return plumbing are needed.. once a plumber looks at the unit, and your existing installation.. the info he needs to make an estimate or bid for your install will all be there.. there is nothing unique to any boiler,, oil, gas or coal.. and like Sting said, most plumbers aren't even going to read any literature anyway..

If you get a quote from a plumber without him looking at your current installation first.. well, I'd not trust that bid at all, unless it's a by the hour plus parts quote. For example, if your old system is a conversion from a gravity feed system, with huge pipes, then a correct instalation would be to reduce the piping size to make it work correctly.. There are too many variables to list..

I'll recommend the same book that Sting recommended, or at least read through some of the many threads on the 'plumbing, chimneys, ducting' forum here and read some of the info there..

An educated consumer is much less likely to recieve poor work than one who know what to look for.

Best of luck..

Greg L

LSfarm,

Thank you for your welcome.

I wanted to address the points you've made, because I do look forward to gaining insight into the work that you have all done to successfully transition from oil to coal, and at the same time share my own experience. Although it will entail more work, I do need a new boiler, I do want to get away from oil, and the thought of supporting local manufacturers and coal miners makes me feel that the conversion has a real meaning to the economy of my community.

The issue I had with Sting was not that his recommendations were bad, per se, but the tone of his posts.

I am not an idiot, I have worked with contractors before and have had success in determining quality work from shoddy work (I specialize in shoddy work, so that's my baseline ). FWIW, I have had the same auto mechanic (for major work, I do all maintainance myself) for over 20 years. He's not the cheapest, but he's honest as the day is long, he doesn't do work that isn't needed, he knows what he can and cannot do, and recommends quality folks for the jobs he isn't comfortable handling.

Price, for me, is never the most important issue when it comes to choosing a craftsman.

Having said all that, I thank both you and he for the input. I was not planning on reading up on hydronic heating, given that I don't intend becoming an expert, however having had time to reflect on both his and your advice I will take it and use the time between now and the installation to become better aquainted with the theory and the installation of these systems.

As the time draws nearer to putting this unit in, I'll post updates with pictures and share the trials and successes with you all here.

Regards,
Kevin

morning Kevin

This can be a very interesting project - always more fun if you understand as much or more than the folks you interview

here is a link to the book I wrote of above http://store.hydronicpros.com/category. ... 1002&qpg=1 it is highly recommended by another significant member of these pages - but I find it far to 'heady" for the beginner. But if your and engineer type - its your hook up for sure.

here is something far more appealing -- others call them comic books - but many more have found them exactly what they needed to get a great install

Here is the best advice I can give you - Buy - rent - or borrow these books - Sit down and READ them and then lets chat. This is likely the best 80 bucks you will ever spend on your hobby!
http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Sup ... h-The-Flow
add this (maybe later) and your a jump ahead for wiring
http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Sup ... riple-Play

Thanks for the space!
http://www.pvsullivan.com/Downloads.html
Download this heat loss calculator if you want to do the best job for your self - It will conclude exactly how big of a heating appliance you really need. Too big a boiler is a fuel hog -- too small -- well your cold

or

Here’s an example of a no brainer version:

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/ ... atLoss.htm



Kind Regards
Sting