It's Alive!

stokerscot wrote:Couldn't you just put a different motor on it. One that runs twice as fast. More air more coal. Twice as much. Supercharge that badboy. I gotta try that and see how it burns at a higher rate . See if it would work. Betcha it pumps some kind of gas out the pipe You could put a longer piece on the gearbox to get more coal out.

The 350 520 run 1/8 HP motor The 700 900 1300 ran a 1/6 HP motor also the fans are much bigger then on the 350 520
stokers

It has been six months since I fired up the DF520 on that -22F January morning, so I thought it was time for an update.

First and foremost, I have not had a single breakdown that required any sort of repair. I did freshen the stoker up a little bit with new drive/check pawls, but it would have run a long time as it was.

Consumption: I have burned six tons in six months, and that includes heating the house, all of our domestic hot water, and heating the pool for a few weeks. 5 tons of rice, 1 ton of buck, feed rates ranging from 3 teeth to 10 . With the exception of a two week shutdown for cleaning and a paintjob, the boiler has run continously with no outfires.

Settings: 5 teeth, 4.75 air seems to be a good all-around setting for my stoker. At that feed rate it can heat the house on all but the worst days, and idle on a 90 degree day waiting for a call for domestic hot water. I have found 160/200/10 to work just fine for aquastat settings.

Before paint:



After paint:





Cruising along at 4 teeth:



Roaring at 8 teeth on buck:

Looks like that thing cranks!

SMITTY wrote:Looks like that thing cranks!

And that's not even wide open.

From what I've seen, the EFM's really like buck. I know the manual says to use rice in a 520, but at least for the bigger units (with their bigger motors, feed tubes, etc.) I think Rob's video shows how buck breathes better and can produce a more intense fire.

Mike

Pacowy wrote:

coal berner wrote:

stoker-man wrote:The only thing that determines output is how far does the worm turn each stroke of the stoker. The S-20 can move 10-11 teeth each stroke.

Wrong the original AP-520 with the large gerabox with the S-20 had a feed rate of 20lbs max which is 8 teeth max
each tooth is 2.5 lbs per hr of coal with Rice size coal It is 2lbs per hr per tooth 16lbs 8 teeth max on the older S-20
with Buckwheat size coal On the newer S-20 Small gear box is 10 teeth 20lbs per hr max
The S-15 stoker with the smaller pot had a max feed rate of 15lbs per hr 6 teeth max.
it was not until the DF model with the smaller gear box that you had a max feed rate of 25lbs per hr 10teeth
now with a simple modifaction you can get them to run 14 to 15 teeth out of them 35lbs per hr to 37.5 lbs per hr .
I have the EFM Spec.sheets that show these stats Showing the feed rate of the original AP-520 S-20 AP-350 S-15 & with the S-20 AP-700 AP-900 AP-1300.
As well as actually Running and having hands on these units testing them at the shop.

Could you please reconcile these S-20 numbers with the information you presented in another thread (EFM, Keystoker, or AHS, 6/14/2008), where you said that on a Highboy, "the feed rate went from 1 to 10 teeth 2.5 lbs a hr. to 25lbs a hr stoker was a S-20...The standard 520 ...also use the S-20 stoker...". That post didn't say anything about 16 lb/hr.

Perhaps mistakenly, I thought (from EFM literature) that the EFM stokers originally were "named" according to their max throughput of buckwheat. With the S-20 some users had problems with buck (stress with long augers, fumes with short augers) so EFM began to recommend using rice instead of buck in the S-20. They found that the same auger moves more rice than buck (2.5 vs. 2.0 lb/tooth/hr), so the throughput of the stoker depends on rice vs. buck. If there really was an S-20 that burned 16 lb/hr of buck, I'd like to see the literature on it. I would also be curious as to whether anyone has achieved a satisfactory burn in an S-20 modified to 35+ lb/hr as you describe.

Thanks.

Mike

Unless you can come up with literature from the late 40s or early 50s i dont know where you would find it on paper, however i am not going to argue the fact since i have half a dozen old housings with the tag on that states 16lbs.buck and 20lbs rice.Several forum members have seen these at my shop so i guess you can doubt them too. Before my heart attack i cleaned and serviced about 200 stokers a year and i would say30 of them all burned buck all the time with no problem. As far as the s-20 pushing 35lbs. per hour no one in their right mind would need or attempt to install that in a 520 The standard s-20 pot is 14 and a half in. in diamater, and 8 and one half in. deep. If you install the oversize top ring you can go to 15 in. in diamater. a standard 700 pot is 9 in. deep and 16 in. in diamater. very similar. I think coalberner was refering to the 700 that i built a s-20 unit for that i can push 14 teeth with a very satisfactory burn and it has no problem satisfying the boiler, With the cost and availability of 700 parts this is a much cheaper way to go with a lot less moving parts and maintenance.And dont ask for photos cause i am working on an install kit that can bring some of these units back in service at an affordable price without the high cost of a 700 unit, not ready for any copycats just yet. Thanx scrapper

I don't think I was arguing about anything on a nameplate or doubting anybody's facts - I was asking for clarification on two posts that seemed inconsistent with each other. Thanks for the further input about the housings, though I'm not sure where that fits in with coal berner's post about 25 lb/hr S-20's on Highboys and regular 520's.

I enjoyed your post where you described the ways your family helps with your refurbs. To me, it's very cool both in terms of both the common interest it provides for your family, and the leverage it provides for your expertise, so that more of these units can receive an extended life.

I'm not sure about your reference to "copycats" on the S-20 enhancements you describe. A few years ago there probably was a risk that Matthaus, with his robotics background, would take a shot at souping up EFM stokers, but I'm under the impression he now has plenty to do at LL. The rest of the people I know of who restore EFM's are only trying to make sure they work as intended. Congrats in advance on any ways you develop to improve that.

Mike

Pacowy wrote:I don't think I was arguing about anything on a nameplate or doubting anybody's facts - I was asking for clarification on two posts that seemed inconsistent with each other. Thanks for the further input about the housings, though I'm not sure where that fits in with coal berner's post about 25 lb/hr S-20's on Highboys and regular 520's.

I enjoyed your post where you described the ways your family helps with your refurbs. To me, it's very cool both in terms of both the common interest it provides for your family, and the leverage it provides for your expertise, so that more of these units can receive an extended life.

I'm not sure about your reference to "copycats" on the S-20 enhancements you describe. A few years ago there probably was a risk that Matthaus, with his robotics background, would take a shot at souping up EFM stokers, but I'm under the impression he now has plenty to do at LL. The rest of the people I know of who restore EFM's are only trying to make sure they work as intended. Congrats in advance on any ways you develop to improve that.

Mike

OK lets clear this up for the last time
The original AP-520 -1 with the original S-20 had a max feed rate of 8 teeth with Rice coal each tooth is 2.5 lbs per hr
8 teeth feed rate is 20 lbs per hr max when burning buckwheat size the feed rate is 2 lbs per hr 2 x 8 = 16 lbs max or 2lbs
per hr per tooth. Note the early ones like on the highboy used a slip joint on the feed arm to adjust the feed rate at
bottom. Not like the ones later or current that use the adjustment plate at the top above the drum gear.

Both the early 520s and highboys used this making the feed rate 1 to 4 & 4 to 8 teeth feed rate max by losing the bolt on slip joint /slotted joint

The Df 520 's with smaller gear box has a max feed rate of 10 teeth 2.5 lbs per tooth with Rice coal 2.5 x 10=25lbs per hr
with buckwheat size coal the feed rate is 2 lbs per hr per tooth so 2x10 = 20lbs per hr
Look at the last page in manual you will see max feed rate on DF models

http://www.efmheating.com/manuals/DF520 ... lation.pdf

Note they change the feed rate from 1 to 10 teeth to 3 to 10 teeth the original manuals states 1 to 10 teeth like my 1986
manual My 1966 manuals shows the feed rate at 1 to 8 teeth feed rate

As for modification done to S-20 to increase feed rate you need a few parts to modify so it can increase the feed rate
to 13 to 14 teeth feed rate Like Scrapper said there is really no need to do this with a 520 boiler but it can be done
because I seen it done . And just not with 520s but also with 350s boilers .

Like scrapper says the pots are 14.5" across standard S-20s with a S-22 pot ash ring add now it is 15.5 " across 1 extra inch
According to Stoker man that extra inch increases the btu's up to a extra 5k in btus.

The 700 pot is 16" across the top like scrapper says However I thought it was 17" maybe he will check and post back
with the 700 pot size and 900 pot size maybe even the 1300 pot size .

As far as Matt goes he has his hands full with Boeing and L.L stoves and besides he is a AA guy anyway.
being this is only his fifth year burning coal and about 4 years playing with stoves and boilers he has a long way to go
to catch up with Scrapper's 30 years plus experience on efm and other's coal burning units

Pacowy wrote:

coal berner wrote:

stoker-man wrote:The only thing that determines output is how far does the worm turn each stroke of the stoker. The S-20 can move 10-11 teeth each stroke.

Wrong the original AP-520 with the large gerabox with the S-20 had a feed rate of 20lbs max which is 8 teeth max
each tooth is 2.5 lbs per hr of coal with Rice size coal It is 2lbs per hr per tooth 16lbs 8 teeth max on the older S-20
with Buckwheat size coal On the newer S-20 Small gear box is 10 teeth 20lbs per hr max
The S-15 stoker with the smaller pot had a max feed rate of 15lbs per hr 6 teeth max.
it was not until the DF model with the smaller gear box that you had a max feed rate of 25lbs per hr 10teeth
now with a simple modifaction you can get them to run 14 to 15 teeth out of them 35lbs per hr to 37.5 lbs per hr .
I have the EFM Spec.sheets that show these stats Showing the feed rate of the original AP-520 S-20 AP-350 S-15 & with the S-20 AP-700 AP-900 AP-1300.
As well as actually Running and having hands on these units testing them at the shop.

Could you please reconcile these S-20 numbers with the information you presented in another thread (EFM, Keystoker, or AHS, 6/14/2008), where you said that on a Highboy, "the feed rate went from 1 to 10 teeth 2.5 lbs a hr. to 25lbs a hr stoker was a S-20...The standard 520 ...also use the S-20 stoker...". That post didn't say anything about 16 lb/hr.

Perhaps mistakenly, I thought (from EFM literature) that the EFM stokers originally were "named" according to their max throughput of buckwheat. With the S-20 some users had problems with buck (stress with long augers, fumes with short augers) so EFM began to recommend using rice instead of buck in the S-20. They found that the same auger moves more rice than buck (2.5 vs. 2.0 lb/tooth/hr), so the throughput of the stoker depends on rice vs. buck. If there really was an S-20 that burned 16 lb/hr of buck, I'd like to see the literature on it. I would also be curious as to whether anyone has achieved a satisfactory burn in an S-20 modified to 35+ lb/hr as you describe.

Thanks.

Mike

I corrected these Numbers at least a dozen times or more since the first post in 2008 or since you pointed out to me a year or more ago .
The numbers are correct early S-20 had a feed rate of 8 teeth max 20 lbs max the later /current ones have a feed rate of 10 teeth 25 lbs per hr max unless there is a modification done to them

Pacowy wrote:I don't think I was arguing about anything on a nameplate or doubting anybody's facts - I was asking for clarification on two posts that seemed inconsistent with each other. Thanks for the further input about the housings, though I'm not sure where that fits in with coal berner's post about 25 lb/hr S-20's on Highboys and regular 520's.

I enjoyed your post where you described the ways your family helps with your refurbs. To me, it's very cool both in terms of both the common interest it provides for your family, and the leverage it provides for your expertise, so that more of these units can receive an extended life.

I'm not sure about your reference to "copycats" on the S-20 enhancements you describe. A few years ago there probably was a risk that Matthaus, with his robotics background, would take a shot at souping up EFM stokers, but I'm under the impression he now has plenty to do at LL. The rest of the people I know of who restore EFM's are only trying to make sure they work as intended. Congrats in advance on any ways you develop to improve that.

Mike

Well did you ever think the other people you know that restores EFM might not have the knowledge or the time and experience that very few others do have on this units and know what works and what does not work.
Most if not all of the old timers that forgot more about this units then most will ever know about them are long gone
only a very few are left that know more about these units including the current people who are running working at the Company now.

Thanks for clarifying the numbers. The post scrapper referenced was from a while ago, and I didn't have a good recollection of whatever may have been posted on that in the interim.

I'm sure you're quite right about the expertise. My point was that the the people I know who restore EFM's - even those with lengthy experience and deep expertise - don't seem to be putting much effort into making the types of changes that were described. Sometimes change can be good, and I wished scrapper well with that. And I agree that whether or not there are copycats out there, he's under no obligation to publish photos of any modified (or unmodified) units.

Mike

Pacowy wrote:Thanks for clarifying the numbers. The post scrapper referenced was from a while ago, and I didn't have a good recollection of whatever may have been posted on that in the interim.

I'm sure you're quite right about the expertise. My point was that the the people I know who restore EFM's - even those with lengthy experience and deep expertise - don't seem to be putting much effort into making the types of changes that were described. Sometimes change can be good, and I wished scrapper well with that. And I agree that whether or not there are copycats out there, he's under no obligation to publish photos of any modified (or unmodified) units.

Mike

I'm sure you're quite right about the expertise. My point was that the the people I know who restore EFM's - even those with lengthy experience and deep expertise .

Well then they should of known of or have seen the S-20 blower with the Anthracite institute & EFM metal tags that shows 20 lbs per max with Rice coal and 16 lbs per hr with Buckwheat also some units with tags show 15 lbs max with
buckwheat .

Keep this in mind even know EFM started in NY in 1907 to 1941 then Moved to Emmaus PA And the first boilers were made there in 1948 I will guarantee that more PA boys seen and Handel more boilers with all the changes that had been done from the start of making them then any NY boys have or will ever see being is less then 50 miles away from from some of the largest dealers efm ever had and most of them bought and installed 90% of the boilers EFM ever sold That would include the Fire Jet boilers as well that EFM made

I think everyone who burns anthracite should be appreciative of the "PA guys" for their work and sacrifices in making available the fuel and the equipment with which it can efficiently be burned. At the same time, as you've pointed out, the history of coal use and stoker development extends well beyond PA. The ancestors of current EFM stokers were created in NYC, and FitzGibbons (famous here for their manufacture of Highboys) was based in Oswego, NY. At one point, I believe there was even an anthracite mine in Rhode Island, and anthracite burning equipment was in high demand across a wide area.

While the spread of oil and gas central heat certainly left the biggest concentration of coal users in NEPA, there are two geographical factors to remember. First, a lot of NY and NJ and parts of western New England are closer to NEPA than is western PA, so we're not really that far away. Second, btu requirements for heat tend to increase as you go north (NY and New England again). So even though the fraction of houses that use coal is probably largest in PA, there are a lot of substantial coal users to the north who shouldn't be overlooked just because they aren't from PA. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that the "Lifetime Achievement Award" for the most coal burning by a forum member would go to a guy from NH, while the forum member who shovels the most coal to heat his house each year is from MA. Even this thread was started by a guy from so far upstate in NY that it makes me cold just thinking about it.

So I'd like to salute the PA guys, but do it in a way that acknowledges the perspectives, expertise and contributions of the non-PA guys (and gals) as well.

Mike

Pacowy wrote:I think everyone who burns anthracite should be appreciative of the "PA guys" for their work and sacrifices in making available the fuel and the equipment with which it can efficiently be burned. At the same time, as you've pointed out, the history of coal use and stoker development extends well beyond PA. The ancestors of current EFM stokers were created in NYC, and FitzGibbons (famous here for their manufacture of Highboys) was based in Oswego, NY. At one point, I believe there was even an anthracite mine in Rhode Island, and anthracite burning equipment was in high demand across a wide area.

While the spread of oil and gas central heat certainly left the biggest concentration of coal users in NEPA, there are two geographical factors to remember. First, a lot of NY and NJ and parts of western New England are closer to NEPA than is western PA, so we're not really that far away. Second, btu requirements for heat tend to increase as you go north (NY and New England again). So even though the fraction of houses that use coal is probably largest in PA, there are a lot of substantial coal users to the north who shouldn't be overlooked just because they aren't from PA. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that the "Lifetime Achievement Award" for the most coal burning by a forum member would go to a guy from NH, while the forum member who shovels the most coal to heat his house each year is from MA. Even this thread was started by a guy from so far upstate in NY that it makes me cold just thinking about it.

So I'd like to salute the PA guys, but do it in a way that acknowledges the perspectives, expertise and contributions of the non-PA guys (and gals) as well.

Mike

Being Anthracite coal was discovered in NEPA in 1762 in Wyoming Valley and The First Anthracite furnace was built in 1795 on Schuylkill County canal in PA Near Pottsville Pa In 1790 on Broad Mountain outside of Pottsville PA Anthracite coal was Discovery My Back Yard . The First record Of Anthracite being used was in 1768.

No There is no Anthracite anthracite mine in Rhode Island Nor any Anthracite never was formed there Only In NEPA will you Find Anthracite coal on the east cost .
Maybe Bituminous up there in R.I.

The Guy From NH has only has a few Hundred years to catch up to any body from PA For burning Anthracite Doug States He Started in 1972 burning Anthracite Well he is only a few centuries behind us boys down here in PA . We forgot more about Anthracite down here in NEPA then he or anyone outside of NEPA will ever know about it and That is a Fact.

Now You Might want to Read more about EFM history You will find That all Anthracite boiler where design here And 90 % where built here .

EFM moved to Emmaus PA in 1941 Started to build boilers in 1948 They used several Different boiler makes to build boiler tops Do to The High Demand for them Fitzgibbon brothers was only a small part Lo line boilers Allentown PA Cob co Boilers from PA Kirkland Boilers PA made boiler tops for efm as well as General machine /EFM Which was formed in NY but only made stokers conversion then 1907 t0 1940 it was not until the company moved from NY To PA 1941 they Started to design boilers

1948 Highboys was the first coal fired boilers the tops where made in NY. However EFM made & built everything else in house They Had There own Foundry & Sheet metal shop As Well as Machine Shop all in Emmaus and shrouding area Read the History on the Company & Companies They Started operated & bought out others . The fire Jet came in the early fifties Made in PA By EFM.

He is brief part of the History of the company.

efm Company History

Just finished installing a set of "Custom Line" jackets, new burner plates, and an hour meter.

Awesome!