15% ethanol new reg.

15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: mason coal burner On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:40 pm

has anyone talked about gas going to 15% ethanol . ethanol big failure .
mason coal burner
 
Stove/Furnace Make: hitzer/glenwood
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Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:56 pm

I hear this is the way it is going. Not real good for rubber fuel lines and the ethanol absorbs moisture. I guess this is our gov. way to extend the oil supply. They will be adding shale to the coal supply next.
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube

Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:03 pm

I would like to know how much ethanol the gov. uses in their own vehicles. I can remember talking to a partsman from a generator co.in harrisburg. They were doing work for the epa , installing an older generator in their building. They company told the epa their gen set was not up to their own regulations. THEY STILL USED THAT GENERATOR.
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube


Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: dave brode On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:10 pm

mcb,

I read that "they" [The EPA] approved E15 for use in 2001 and new vehicles. Previously, E15 was approved [or, deemed safe to use] only for '07s and newer vehicles. Lots of gains in stocks and ethanol futures occured after the change. That's what it's about imo.

Only within the last few months did all gas in my area become E10. Previously, one could find E5 premium, as well as a few places in nearby WV that had no ethanol in any of their gas.

My question is, what does "approved for" mean? Approve is different than mandate [allow vs require]. Will gas stations have the option to sell both E10, AND E15? It seems unlikely that there would be enough profit to offset the cost of add'l pumps and such. Or, will States have the option to mandate E15 only? Since E15 has been approved only for '01 and newer, how can it be legal for a State, County etc to mandate that E10 is eliminated?

As for it being safe, it is, imo, as long as fuel hose and the like is "modern". It is bad for the wallet though. Less energy, the engine does not make as much power, so mileage goes down. Some say that vapor lock can be an issue too.

On the subject, a fellow I know told me about another guy that still uses drygas in the winter. So now, he adds a little bottle of drygas to his gasoline that in effect, already had 10% drygas content.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/#no-use

Dave
dave brode
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-2
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Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: mason coal burner On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:32 pm

with the obama EPA you know it will be mandated !
mason coal burner
 
Stove/Furnace Make: hitzer/glenwood
Stove/Furnace Model: 82/111

Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:34 pm

In New England and California, it will be mandatory. Anywhere in certain EPA "high pollution" zones will get it.

I'm already down several MPG at 10%. Any more is going to be a killer.

Why are we using corn to make ethanol anyway? The US is the largest producer of sugar beets. Why not make it from that?
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
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Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: mason coal burner On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:01 pm

does george soros own stocks in any sugar beet farms . because he owns lots of stocks in corn farms . that aint no accident . it is also law we have to use U.S. grown corn . 40 % of U.S. corn goes to ethanol production . people hear on this forum have said we can make fuel from coal . make it profitable when oil goes over 45 $ / barrel . a barrel is hovering around 90 $ . why aren't we doing this . this is B.S. . big oil . big coal . BIG CORN .
mason coal burner
 
Stove/Furnace Make: hitzer/glenwood
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Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:05 pm

mason coal burner wrote: people hear on this forum have said we can make fuel from coal . make it profitable when oil goes over 45 $ / barrel . a barrel is hovering around 90 $ . why aren't we doing this . this is B.S. . big oil . big coal . BIG CORN .
What, we don't want to drive up the price of coal. :(
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube

Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: mason coal burner On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:14 pm

the only driving i do since Katrina is to work . 70-150 miles / day i used to love driving around . the price of gas is killing the american way . drill baby drill .
mason coal burner
 
Stove/Furnace Make: hitzer/glenwood
Stove/Furnace Model: 82/111

Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: mozz On: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:22 pm

Ethanol is not the same as methanol. I'm not a chemist but i saw one on tv once. I have heard some horror stories from small engine repair places saying how this stuff ruins older carburetors. Been having problems with my Suzuki last few years not wanting to start when it has been below zero outside. Yesterday or this morning was 10 below and it started fine with a little slow sluggish cranking. I have been using Lucas treatment since Nov, dumping in a few ounces in the tank each time i filled up, whether that got rid of the iceing i don't know but at least she started. Snowblower was sputtering with a slight miss but that gas was from the end of summer 93 octane with the red stabilizer mixed in.
mozz
 
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Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: dave brode On: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:11 am

No, ethanol is not methyl, nor is it isopropyl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

2 cents worth of babble on the fuel itself;

Ethanol [corn squeezin, grain, etc] isn't the hatefully corrosive fuel that methanol is. Perhaps many of the wive's tales come from fellows that have been around methanol fueled racers. It must be flushed from the fuel system after running. If not, it'll turn aluminum to goo, and it'll ever etch cast iron cylinder walls. Not so with ethanol. Guys are running E85 and E98 [sold in barrels, like racing gas] with normal steel tanks, carbs, pumps etc. No problem letting it sit in the car. Many feel that it is a wonderful fuel for a high compression and/or supercharged engine, btw.

I know that small engine and boating folks are freaking out. Fwiw, here's my take on some issues when using ethanol laden fuel in older equipment [marine engines, lawn equipment etc];

One issue is it's ability to absorb water from the air. This may be worse with boats that sit on the water, esp those with open vented fuel systems. I would cap vent lines, use plastic sheet over the fuel cap etc on a boat that sits. Another issue is years worth of varnish in the tank, lines and carb in older stuff. At the onset of using ethanol laden fuel, that crud comes loose, and it will end up in the filter, and/or small orifices and carb bowl. Probably the biggest issue is the rubber used in older fuel line and many rubber parts in pumps, carbs etc is attacked by the ethanol. No easy fix there. The aftermarket is going to have to step up and change the "rubber" material. There may be some real issues with substandard castings made from junk, but "normally*, the metal parts are not effected by ethanol.

As far as mileage and tuning, as jpete said, it hurts mileage and will be worse at 15%. The stoichiometric ratio for ethanol is far different than for gasoline. Much richer mixtures are needed with alcohol fuels. Therefore, the engine isn't happy, although I doubt that any harm will be done to most normal vehicles, even at 15%.

Why does the fuel "go bad" quicker? Perhaps someone with more of a chemist backround can say. I don't know. I don't have issues with today's gas sitting for a few months, but I do know it will not last for years, like gas from "back in the day" would.

That said, imo, ethanol in this Country is illogical, and not about being "green", but rather greedy.
Dave

Edit; Check this link;


http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
dave brode
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-2
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: used to have a 5 section Red Square
Coal Size/Type: rice anthracite

Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: SMITTY On: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:45 am

If you live in MA, your already running upwards of 20% ethanol ..... they just won't tell you that! The amount varies from station to station ... and even at the same station at different times. 15% will give them the green light to screw us even more. Par for the course ... :roll:

No wonder all my carbureted vehicles require gigantic jets compared to stock requirements. :mad:
SMITTY
 
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Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: jpete On: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:49 pm

Iso alcohol IS "green" in that the product of burning it is mainly water. It lowers the EGT which lowers NOx.

I had a catalytic converter on my truck that was cracked in half. It failed emissions by a mile. I dumped half a dozen bottles of HEET dry gas in it and had it rechecked and it passed with flying colors.

The problems with fuel mileage could be made up with compression but that's not always easy. The "Flex Fuel" cars I believe have a different fuel map depending on the alcohol content. Probably a different spark curve to allow the engine to build a little more pressure before it ignites the mixture.

And let's face it, none of us want to live under a brown L.A. haze, and isopropyl is certainly better than MBTE.

I just object to the use of corn when there are so many other better alternatives. Congress likes to use our own money against us to do what's in THEIR best interest.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
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Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: dave brode On: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:01 pm

If the data at the link that I posted earlier is true, it seems obvious to me just how tight a grip on the system the money guys have. It just doesn't seem to me that they should be able to do this.

With that said, if we had E85 here, I would surely try it in my old truck's 11.7-1 compression engine [currently using *other* non pump gas].

On jetting, a nieghbor complained about his sail boat's fairly new putt putt engine not running well. Poor running until fully hot, etc. He bought a kit, but there really wasn't any gook in the carb. Unbeknownst to him, I slid a .001" bigger number drill through the tiny pilot jet [slow jet] while we dinked with it [.001" was a fairly big change in orifice area]. He is a really anal "by the book" guy, and hates to modify anything. He was very happy with the results. He said the idle mix screw had more effect [actually an air bypass on his carb], easy warmup, etc etc. Only then did I tell him what I did.

I wonder if most of the newer small engines are jetted a little too lean, and the "E" is making them much worse?

Dave
Last edited by dave brode on Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
dave brode
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-2
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Coal Size/Type: rice anthracite

Re: 15% ethanol new reg.

PostBy: mason coal burner On: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:36 pm

my point is the FED should not be paying farmers to grow corn for fuel . corn is food . they are inflating the price big time . more expensive grains animal food . which has other affects on food prices . ETC.
mason coal burner
 
Stove/Furnace Make: hitzer/glenwood
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