GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:27 pm

tom69z wrote:$13440 total, includes the well drilling and loop piping, the heat pump unit and installation connection to existing air handler that moves the air for my central AC. The exisiting AC compressor would no longer be used. One reason for the lowe price is because they can use existing ducting. Drilling into the bedrock has a much higher temp transfer vs a horizontal piping loop. Sized for my place a 2.5 ton system complete soup to nuts. Can purchase an extended warranty on the heatpump unit for an additional $1200.

And I was told there would be a 30% rebate from the corrupt government.

There is no longer a 30% rebate. It expired at the end of 2010. IF, your HVAC contractor told you 30% he lied. The credit as I read the law limits the credit to $500 and depending on what credits you might have taken in past years your credit might be $0. Proceed with caution.

Full details are here:

http://energytaxincentives.org/consumer ... ooling.php
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:42 pm

Sorry guys, but I can't help it :mad:

14k dollars would get me over 75 tons of the good stuff. That's 15-20 years of burning American made product. Are you sure they are installing American made products? That's keeping my house pretty comfortable and making my domestic hot water also. Does that 14k dollars include domestic hot water costs or the actual heating costs? What are the additional costs involved with your Geo? Buying electricity,,,,, last time I looked, the rates were climbing which would insure that you would still be the heat nazi! What my real question is why are you on the coal forum without a stove listed, having no coal "experience" that we can tell, trying to start trouble with people selling boilers and now trying to sell the merits of a high cost electrical heat system. You need to find other websites to yank the member's chains. You have had a heating season to get on our program. What is your deal?
Scott
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x4, 700. Van Wert 1200.
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: jeromemsn On: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:49 pm

jeromemsn
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker 90 dvc
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman elite fireplace insert


Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: titleist1 On: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:37 pm

stokerscot wrote:S What my real question is why are you on the coal forum without a stove listed, having no coal "experience" that we can tell, trying to start trouble with people selling boilers and now trying to sell the merits of a high cost electrical heat system. You need to find other websites to yank the member's chains. You have had a heating season to get on our program. What is your deal?
Scott


Its our sunny dispositions that attract people!! :D

Coal isn't for everyone, thank goodness, or the price per ton would be much higher.

It will be nice to have a test case to see if the actual install cost is as expected and if operating costs are as expected. A friend of ours has a pond based system and the AC savings in the summer is good, however, the winter savings are not as promised and the house doesn't "feel" warm according to him. His was installed about 5 years ago so maybe there have been some advances since then. He always comments on how warm our house is compared to his, but he doesn't want to put forth the effort to heat with coal.

edited to add....I asked today and he says it hasn't paid for itself yet, should be another 4 or 5 years depending on electric rates and if it needs any repairs.
Last edited by titleist1 on Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:05 am

stokerscot wrote:S What my real question is why are you on the coal forum without a stove listed, having no coal "experience" that we can tell, trying to start trouble with people selling boilers and now trying to sell the merits of a high cost electrical heat system. You need to find other websites to yank the member's chains. You have had a heating season to get on our program. What is your deal?
Scott
:lol: Now don't take this the wrong way, but as the saying goes, It's a womans parogative to change her mind :lol: You know hind sight is 20/20, you are probably looking at the road ahead, their is no crystal ball that say's do this, it will be cheaper. It is all supply and demand. Natural gas may be cheap today and gone tomorrow. For an average, I would bet coal will be one of the lower heating cost fuels over the long hall for many years to come. I myself was debating over what to do, corn, barley, you know they make gas and drinks from them, so have a beer and make up your mind :P
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: tom69z On: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:14 am

well scotty, i have plenty of coal experience, with both hand fired units as well as stokers. our house was heated with coal since I was very young, I know what its like and whats involved (hauling coal in and hauling ashes out, shaking the fire etc) and I know all about good coal and bad coal in a hand fired unit. As far as stokers, I learned about EFMs 15yrs ago, there are two of them in my inlaws basement heating their double house, I know how they work, and what their problem areas are. I just recently learned about AHS units and AA units, never heard of them before. They have a simple design and people seem to love them, but I find it utterly amazing that if these units are so dam good, why haven't I or anyone I know ever heard of these things? Anyway, thats a mystery all its own.

As for trying to start trouble with people selling boilers, Exactly WHAT are you referring to? If its the used $2500 unit that Paul was selling, well I was just stateing what I thought that thing was worth, and thats completely within my rights to do so. I'm looking at all the options here, and I've learned a great deal on this website, some people are helpful while others are just plain bull$hitters. I was almost sent on a wild goose chase a few weeks ago to buy a new AHS unit that someone on here "supposedly" won on ebay, and they were going to "sell" it to me because they were trying to become an AHS dealer. I was not home to place a bid, and I never heard from them since. So I just let it go and chalk that upto a typical Bull$hitter thing, however I sat at home with the cash waiting for the call.... Oh well, I'm sort of glad, since then I spoke to a few people who said they have puff back issues and thats the last thing I'll deal with on a $6500 unit.

How about this Scott, you tell me what I'm allowed to post and then I'll only post that. Wait, we dont live in Russia last time I checked.



stokerscot wrote:Sorry guys, but I can't help it :mad:

14k dollars would get me over 75 tons of the good stuff. That's 15-20 years of burning American made product. Are you sure they are installing American made products? That's keeping my house pretty comfortable and making my domestic hot water also. Does that 14k dollars include domestic hot water costs or the actual heating costs? What are the additional costs involved with your Geo? Buying electricity,,,,, last time I looked, the rates were climbing which would insure that you would still be the heat nazi! What my real question is why are you on the coal forum without a stove listed, having no coal "experience" that we can tell, trying to start trouble with people selling boilers and now trying to sell the merits of a high cost electrical heat system. You need to find other websites to yank the member's chains. You have had a heating season to get on our program. What is your deal?
Scott
tom69z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Thermo-Dynamics HT Oil Boiler
Stove/Furnace Model: none currently

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: cabinover On: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:42 am

In two years of operating my AA I've had one minor puffback I think. I say think because it poofed and the viewing door rattled a little bit. Don't think I'd put too much worry into that little problem. If you've got good draft you won't have to worry about it.
cabinover
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid Axeman Anderson 130
Baseburners & Antiques: Sparkle #12
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Buckwheat, Nut
Other Heating: LP Hot air. WA TX for coal use.

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: tom69z On: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:10 pm

thats what i've been told, its a drafting issue. I would of went with an AHS unit, but for some reason it didnt happen and I believe everything happens for a reason. no offense to anyone who owns one of these units, please dont get me wrong, i'm not knocking them... :)

cabinover wrote:In two years of operating my AA I've had one minor puffback I think. I say think because it poofed and the viewing door rattled a little bit. Don't think I'd put too much worry into that little problem. If you've got good draft you won't have to worry about it.
tom69z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Thermo-Dynamics HT Oil Boiler
Stove/Furnace Model: none currently

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: mof1964 On: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:34 pm

Let me just tell you of a situation that I know of very well. The couple built a new home and everything is geothermal heat/cooling. Both are all excited till they started getting their electric bills to keep this thing going.
It is nothing for them to have anywhere from $500 -$700 month electric bills.

Now to offset the rising cost of electricity they are are installing solar panels. This project is only around $75,000 and yes they get rebates for this and that. The question you have to ask yourself is what the heck is going on? $30,000 for Geothermal / $75,000 for a solar package -- this is serious money. I could pay my house off and have all kinds of money left to pay the normal electric bill(approx $95.00 per month) and buy all kinds of coal to heat my house.

I think too many people are too worried about being green of looking for the alternative all the time.



Mitch
mof1964
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Coal Chubby

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: jeromemsn On: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:41 pm

500 to 700 electric bills Holy *&^% Batman! Something isn't working at all to have electric bills that high. Geothermal only uses two motors to work and then if need be electric coils come on to do a boost if thats what was installed. But normally if you read and know what your doing you won't put in the electric coils you will use Natural Gas to bring things up to temp if it gets bad. Electric for boost maybe down south but up north Natural Gas.

But 500 to 700 electric bills mean that the geothermal is not working at all and your just heating with electric.

Geothermal works on the principle that ground water is always a constant temp and always above freezing. since the geothermal is a heat pump it's always going to get heat out of the water and only on the worst of days when your calling for enormous amount of heat does the electric/natural gas kick in. If you use craigslist you can find a good geothermal unit at a good price you just have to know how big of a unit you need and then oversize it by 2 tons. any reputable dealer will know how to do the math.

At $500 to $700 I don't think that qualifies for energy star status at all.......

With my A-frame there talking in the neighbor hood of 50 dollars for mid winter electric bills here in Michigan. Yes I'm going with electric panels on the roof and solar water panels and a wind generator I hope to be paid for the electric I produce and that will pay for the upkeep of the equipment in the long term


http://tippecanoe.craigslist.org/app/2242662942.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/app/2203607566.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


http://fortwayne.craigslist.org/for/2236249617.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


http://kokomo.craigslist.org/tls/2215927233.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bfs/2226582286.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


The last one on the list, well she is the cadillac of the ones I posted. You don't get any better than a 3 stage.
jeromemsn
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker 90 dvc
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman elite fireplace insert

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: EarthWindandFire On: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:44 pm

I would not, under most circumstances, recommend Geothermal due to the initial cost.

Few people would stay in the house long enough to receive any payback in the form of financial dividends and would likely not recoup the cost during a sale.
EarthWindandFire
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Leisure Line Lil' Heater.
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer model 75.
Other Heating: Oil and Natural Gas.

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: tom69z On: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:50 pm

all good points here, thanks for the insight, I will investigate this 110% before deciding to go this route. thanks again.




EarthWindandFire wrote:I would not, under most circumstances, recommend Geothermal due to the initial cost.

Few people would stay in the house long enough to receive any payback in the form of financial dividends and would likely not recoup the cost during a sale.
tom69z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Thermo-Dynamics HT Oil Boiler
Stove/Furnace Model: none currently

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:06 pm

Yikes!!! Now I understand why we have so many stove owners that have Geo Therm systems.



jeromemsn wrote:500 to 700 electric bills Holy *&^% Batman! Something isn't working at all to have electric bills that high. Geothermal only uses two motors to work and then if need be electric coils come on to do a boost if thats what was installed. But normally if you read and know what your doing you won't put in the electric coils you will use Natural Gas to bring things up to temp if it gets bad. Electric for boost maybe down south but up north Natural Gas.

But 500 to 700 electric bills mean that the geothermal is not working at all and your just heating with electric.

Geothermal works on the principle that ground water is always a constant temp and always above freezing. since the geothermal is a heat pump it's always going to get heat out of the water and only on the worst of days when your calling for enormous amount of heat does the electric/natural gas kick in. If you use craigslist you can find a good geothermal unit at a good price you just have to know how big of a unit you need and then oversize it by 2 tons. any reputable dealer will know how to do the math.

At $500 to $700 I don't think that qualifies for energy star status at all.......

With my A-frame there talking in the neighbor hood of 50 dollars for mid winter electric bills here in Michigan. Yes I'm going with electric panels on the roof and solar water panels and a wind generator I hope to be paid for the electric I produce and that will pay for the upkeep of the equipment in the long term


http://tippecanoe.craigslist.org/app/2242662942.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/app/2203607566.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


http://fortwayne.craigslist.org/for/2236249617.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


http://kokomo.craigslist.org/tls/2215927233.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bfs/2226582286.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


The last one on the list, well she is the cadillac of the ones I posted. You don't get any better than a 3 stage.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:44 am

[quote="tom69z"]well scotty, i have plenty of coal experience, with both hand fired units as well as stokers. our house was heated with coal since I was very young, I know what its like and whats involved (hauling coal in and hauling ashes out, shaking the fire etc) and I know all about good coal and bad coal in a hand fired unit. As far as stokers, I learned about EFMs 15yrs ago, there are two of them in my inlaws basement heating their double house, I know how they work, and what their problem areas are. I just recently learned about AHS units and AA units, never heard of them before. They have a simple design and people seem to love them, but I find it utterly amazing that if these units are so dam good, why haven't I or anyone I know ever heard of these things? Anyway, thats a mystery all its own.

As for trying to start trouble with people selling boilers, Exactly WHAT are you referring to? If its the used $2500 unit that Paul was selling, well I was just stateing what I thought that thing was worth, and thats completely within my rights to do so. I'm looking at all the options here, and I've learned a great deal on this website, some people are helpful while others are just plain bull$hitters. I was almost sent on a wild goose chase a few weeks ago to buy a new AHS unit that someone on here "supposedly" won on ebay, and they were going to "sell" it to me because they were trying to become an AHS dealer. I was not home to place a bid, and I never heard from them since. So I just let it go and chalk that upto a typical Bull$hitter thing, however I sat at home with the cash waiting for the call.... Oh well, I'm sort of glad, since then I spoke to a few people who said they have puff back issues and thats the last thing I'll deal with on a $6500 unit.







Well Tommy, I've had enough experience with geo to last a lifetime.My experience cost me enough in company loss that I am sure to be burning coal for the next 20 years. While they are touted to be the end all, what I saw was a building built around their supposed energy saving design, totally over engineered, high cost for a local college to teach alternate energy courses. The Water furnaces supplied proved to be a product that only the factory reps could deal with when they could be pursuaded into coming to N.Y. The best part of the whole thing is the fact that it cost more to run that building than any other on the whole campus :P We had to go back and figure other ways to save electrical costs. Overpriced , Bull$hitting, unaccountable dead wood engineers trying to validate their existance. Just like politicians, one and the same. Me,,,,I will take my EFM and ride off into the sunset. I will grow old with it in comfort and peace, knowing that it won't let me down. Can that Geo loop make me feel the same way. NO! I 'm not really sure how it all works but this I do know, it take some serious electricity to pump water from 300' down from 5 wells. It takes serious electricity to run compressors. I just got back home from installing a EFM 520 for a friend who was sold one of the last great fads, the on demand propane system. Doesn't matter how you cut it, you still have to burn it. The look on his wife's face when I told her she didn't have to keep the heat on 50 anymore was worth it all. I had her run upstairs and turn all the zones on so I could load set the boiler and she came back down an hour later and said it felt too hot.
As far as what you post,,,, I really don't give a frick what you post. That is my right. Do you give a crap what I reply? That is also your right. What I don't get was why you sold the AHS that you restored. It looked sweet.
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x4, 700. Van Wert 1200.
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: tom69z On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:07 am

thanks for the information, maybe these geo systems are really not what they are being touted as.... Hmm, there is alot of money to be made in these systems for installers, maybe thats the driving force. A co-worker of mine has one and he claims they are saving quite a bit, his system was $28000, when he told me that, I was immediatly questioning him as to why he would spend 28 grand... seems very excessive, but i guess he really wanted that system. Solar is a joke, those systems start at 40 grand for a small home, the only way for that to ever be worthwhile is if you buy a house that already has it, it would seem.

Yanche made a good point too, no more tax credit this year for geo thermal.

As for the AHS, the only explanation to why i sold it, is simple - i was stupid. However, since then I've turned in the Efm direction and have studied exactly how they work, and as you already know, they run like swiss watches. The only thing my inlaws ever have to replace was the sheer pin on the auger drive, i guess occasionally they let go if theres a stray large peice of coal that gets caught in the auger. :pepsi: :shots:
tom69z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Thermo-Dynamics HT Oil Boiler
Stove/Furnace Model: none currently