GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: tom69z On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:07 am

thanks for the information, maybe these geo systems are really not what they are being touted as.... Hmm, there is alot of money to be made in these systems for installers, maybe thats the driving force. A co-worker of mine has one and he claims they are saving quite a bit, his system was $28000, when he told me that, I was immediatly questioning him as to why he would spend 28 grand... seems very excessive, but i guess he really wanted that system. Solar is a joke, those systems start at 40 grand for a small home, the only way for that to ever be worthwhile is if you buy a house that already has it, it would seem.

Yanche made a good point too, no more tax credit this year for geo thermal.

As for the AHS, the only explanation to why i sold it, is simple - i was stupid. However, since then I've turned in the Efm direction and have studied exactly how they work, and as you already know, they run like swiss watches. The only thing my inlaws ever have to replace was the sheer pin on the auger drive, i guess occasionally they let go if theres a stray large peice of coal that gets caught in the auger. :pepsi: :shots:
tom69z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Thermo-Dynamics HT Oil Boiler
Stove/Furnace Model: none currently

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: jeromemsn On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:24 am

Knock knock, who's there, tax credit, tax credit who, 30% tax credit for geothermal units until 2016 thats who...

Yes, there is a 30% tax credit for a geothermal units and install up to 2016 no matter what the price as long as it is "energy star" rated.

The 30% tax credit also includes, wind power, solar hot water, and solar electricity up until 2016

http://ase.org/resources/energy-efficie ... ells_solar
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=t ... s.tx_index

Tax Credit: 30% of cost with no upper limit
Expires: December 31, 2016
Details: Existing homes & new construction qualify. Both principal residences and second homes qualify. Rentals do not qualify.
Geothermal Heat PumpsGeothermal heat pumps are similar to ordinary heat pumps, but use the ground instead of outside air to provide heating, air conditioning and, in most cases, hot water. Because they use the earth's natural heat, they are among the most efficient and comfortable heating and cooling technologies currently available.

Requirements
Closed Loop:
EER ≥ 14.1
COP ≥ 3.3

Open Loop:
EER ≥ 16.2
COP ≥ 3.6

Direct Expansion:
EER ≥ 15
COP ≥ 3.5

Tax Credit includes installation costs.

See definitions.
More Information
How to apply
Geothermal Heat Pump FAQ
All ENERGY STAR geo-thermal heat pumps qualify for the tax credit.
What about water-to-water geothermal heat pumps?
jeromemsn
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker 90 dvc
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman elite fireplace insert

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: tom69z On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:20 pm

$13440 - 30% = $9400.
tom69z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Thermo-Dynamics HT Oil Boiler
Stove/Furnace Model: none currently


Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: Yanche On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:43 pm

jeromemsn wrote:Knock knock, who's there, tax credit, tax credit who, 30% tax credit for geothermal units until 2016 thats who...

Yes, there is a 30% tax credit for a geothermal units and install up to 2016 no matter what the price as long as it is "energy star" rated.

The 30% tax credit also includes, wind power, solar hot water, and solar electricity up until 2016

http://ase.org/resources/energy-efficie ... ells_solar
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=t ... s.tx_index

Tax Credit: 30% of cost with no upper limit
Expires: December 31, 2016
Details: Existing homes & new construction qualify. Both principal residences and second homes qualify. Rentals do not qualify.
Geothermal Heat PumpsGeothermal heat pumps are similar to ordinary heat pumps, but use the ground instead of outside air to provide heating, air conditioning and, in most cases, hot water. Because they use the earth's natural heat, they are among the most efficient and comfortable heating and cooling technologies currently available.

Requirements
Closed Loop:
EER ≥ 14.1
COP ≥ 3.3

Open Loop:
EER ≥ 16.2
COP ≥ 3.6

Direct Expansion:
EER ≥ 15
COP ≥ 3.5

Tax Credit includes installation costs.

See definitions.
More Information
How to apply
Geothermal Heat Pump FAQ
All ENERGY STAR geo-thermal heat pumps qualify for the tax credit.
What about water-to-water geothermal heat pumps?

How recently have you checked your own links? Especially your second one:

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=t ... s.tx_index

Here's a quote from the first paragraph on that site:

Begin Quote ...

"2011 Federal Tax Credits for Consumer Energy Efficiency

NOTE: Tax credits that were 30% up to $1,500 EXPIRED on December 31, 2010. New tax credits were passed, but at lower levels. "


End Quote

When you follow the links to more details you find:

Begin Quote ....

"Highlights:

* 10% up to $500 for insulation, roofs, and doors.
*
Windows capped at $200, but qualification now ENERGY STAR
*
Furnace and boilers capped at $150, and all furnaces and boilers must meet 95 AFUE
*
$50 for advanced main air circulating fan
*
$300 for air conditioners, air source heat pumps, water heaters, and biomass stoves
*
$500 lifetime limit. If you got over $500 in these tax credits from 2006-2010, you are not eligible for anything more."


End Quote

Bottom line there is no current Federal tax credit that makes a significant difference on a heating appliance purchase decision. Read the details, and don't get burned. If you want to get burned stick your hand in a coal appliance!
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: titleist1 On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:46 pm

That $9400 price looks like a no-brainer. Get it in writing!! Also I would suggest getting about 5 references from them that are in your geographic area so that you can contact them and see what their electric usage is per month. That will give you the best indication of ROI.

Yanche...it looks to me like the 30% through 2016 is listed right above the geothermal heat pump listing.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:01 pm

I have posted on this one a number of times. It's a stupid waste of money. Why don't you do the maths including the imputed cost of spending money as accountants will tell you. Please go over the Sullivan county (NY) and talk to BOCES there and go over how you waste hundreds of thousands on taxpayers money only to have the whole unit stop after three years AS THE GROUND WAS FROZEN. The only solution was start again. Air conditioning costs in this part of the world are a tiny part of the equation, if this winter has not convinced you about that one I give up. Artesian well systems perhaps but that is very rare. Wait until electric costs start to zoom up. Solar is a bust too, I looked at all these in detail with an engineer from Columbia University that I trust. Vertical axis wind has some interesting designs that warrant further study but location is everything. I decided that this is the order of energy producers in my part of the world.

Coal
coal
coal
Coal
coal
coal
Coal
coal
coal

Guess what my 10th choice was?
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93,
Baseburners & Antiques: Invader 2 Wings Best, Glenwood #8 + Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: tom69z On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:14 pm

Thanks. I've gotten a few references from the installer and spoke to the customers, they are quite happy with the savings. However, they all have electric hot warter heaters, and I have an oil furnace. Now, as far as hot water goes, I'm looking at about 25gallons of oil per month to heat the hot water, so thats 300gal per yr or about $1000. What I have to be careful of and the big 50 million dollar question is this - how much is the electric going to cost on top of the oil? A detailed summary of kilowatt useage is in order here, and the speculative guess of how much electric will cost over the next 20yrs.


titleist1 wrote:That $9400 price looks like a no-brainer. Get it in writing!! Also I would suggest getting about 5 references from them that are in your geographic area so that you can contact them and see what their electric usage is per month. That will give you the best indication of ROI.

Yanche...it looks to me like the 30% through 2016 is listed right above the geothermal heat pump listing.
tom69z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Thermo-Dynamics HT Oil Boiler
Stove/Furnace Model: none currently

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:38 pm

I heat about 12000sq ft (not quite) with coal. 16 tons at $180 a ton comes to about $3000 TOTAL. You will spend more than that in electricity alone and if we have more winters like this one the efficiency of the unit will go down very year as the ground freezes. YOU have been warned.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93,
Baseburners & Antiques: Invader 2 Wings Best, Glenwood #8 + Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: Yanche On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:50 pm

titleist1 wrote:That $9400 price looks like a no-brainer. Get it in writing!! Also I would suggest getting about 5 references from them that are in your geographic area so that you can contact them and see what their electric usage is per month. That will give you the best indication of ROI.

Yanche...it looks to me like the 30% through 2016 is listed right above the geothermal heat pump listing.


You are correct, it does look like there is a geothermal heat pump credit. It's a bit confusing though, some places it says 30% with no limit other places it's a per 0.5 KW capacity limit.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:13 pm

From my Columbia buddy who lived in CT and who has published many things on energy and this letter was not to me personally. His qualifier has always been these things will always work for some people but it is a few. One thing I can promise you is that he is a lot smarter than me. He has a PH.D in mechanical engineering, was a Professor in is dept and is now working in Mumbai on energy things (he is German- I think). He ran screaming from this country and CT so I lost touch. That was about 18 months ago ... hmmm, what did he know that I am just starting to realize?

We decided a geothermal system was not right for our house for the following reasons:

1) Cost. A geothermal system is going to run $25K plus (mostly higher) and that only includes wells, piping, pumps, etc. You still need ways to convert that 52F water to either heat or cooling for your house.

2) Limitation. As stated in reason one, you're only getting water to 52F, which is fine for cooling, but in our climate (Northwest Connecticut) we heat our houses much more than cool them, so you still are going to need energy to convert that 52F water. Most homes with geothermal use heat pumps to harvest the energy (via temperature differences). This is, obviously, a very simplistic way of looking at it, but it was pointed out to me by an engineer friend that it equates to running a whole-house refrigerator/condenser 365 days a year. Doesn't that seem excessive?? A well insulated house in CT should not require a whole lot of AC, so heating is your primary concern. In my subjective opinion, geothermal is better suited for mid-Atlantic states, where the AC is running more than the heat.

3) The conundrum. Geothermal systems use huge amounts of electricity to pump the water down and then back up the geothermal wells. The solution I hear THE MOST regarding this problem is "Well, you can just install more photovoltaic (PV) panels to offset the added electricity use and cost." Every time I hear this, I usually want to: A) scream, B) stifle a well rehearsed, but condescending explanation of the "less is more" sustainable building theory, described below, or C) ask "With who's money?" The later answer about who is paying is an interesting conversation in itself, because the current state of rebates in CT right now that include PV and geothermal systems means that lots of people are actually paying for these systems, not just the homeowner or home builder.

4) The less is more sustainable building theory. The whole idea of building more sustainably SHOULD BE to use less, being materials, energy, land, whatever, NOT to build systems that can operate your 10,000 SF mansion cheaper. People will likely call me un-American for this, but what the heck. Building smaller IS building greener. Smaller houses use less materials, use less energy, and are less expensive to operate and maintain. Hopefully, our fascination with purchasing lots of stuff that we don't need, and can't afford, and building houses to hold all this stuff is coming to an end, thanks in part to the Great Recession.

Case in point (Boy, I'm going to get in a lot of trouble for this one), the likely winner of the CT Zero Energy Challenge is a house that few people could afford to build and no bank would touch a mortgage for it. This is because so much money was spent on the renewables and heating and cooling systems, there is no way an appraisal would justify the costs. It has something ridiculous like 65 PV panels, many just to run the systems in the house including geothermal. The goal of the Challenge is to promote energy efficiency/green building and to show builders and homeowners that they can achieve net zero energy. How can you expand your mission when your poster project is so unattainable.

5) Matching the technology to the scenario. All the previous points notwithstanding, I do believe that geothermal can work correctly and efficiently under the right conditions in the right project, but the current craze for geothermal means the technology is being used in places where it is neither effective or beneficial. There was an article recently in the Waterbury Republican American newspaper in their Green Living weekly series (our house was featured one week) about a guy who recently installed geothermal. The article praised the system then ended with a breakdown of costs. I'm quoting numbers here from memory because I couldn't find the article online to verify my facts, so forgive me if I get my numbers wrong. He spent $28K for the system and the first two years didn't save anything due to electric costs (his costs actually went UP!!). So he spent more money for different pumps and to rework the system and achieved a savings of $1200 on the third year. The cost benefit analysis proves this technology was not a good choice for his home.

CT has started a geothermal rebate program that is fanning the flames of misinformation and the "experts" pushing these systems are drillers making fortunes on installing them, and don't care about operating costs for the homeowners. Such is life.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93,
Baseburners & Antiques: Invader 2 Wings Best, Glenwood #8 + Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: tom69z On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:41 pm

maybe i should not of posted this topic, i seem to have opened an unwelcome worm-can here on a coal burning forum.
lesson learned, points taken, thanks for the remarks and commentary. the Admin can lock this post anytime they want.
:surrender:
tom69z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Thermo-Dynamics HT Oil Boiler
Stove/Furnace Model: none currently

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: titleist1 On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:21 pm

Tom,
I am really interested to see what the electric bills are for the existing customer references you received. Getting the exact system they have installed for $9400 and if monthly electric is the same as estimated cost of winter coal usage and summer AC usage, I'd say you have a viable solution.

Maybe I missed it, how many wells did they say you would need for your system?
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: samler17 On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:40 pm

coalnewbie wrote:I heat about 12000sq ft (not quite) with coal. 16 tons at $180 a ton comes to about $3000 TOTAL. You will spend more than that in electricity alone and if we have more winters like this one the efficiency of the unit will go down very year as the ground freezes. YOU have been warned.



I don't care what any one of these guys say. I happen to know alot of people who have ground source heatpumps, and I personaly have installed some. The ground freezes you are correct but the wells are well over 100ft usually. You show me where in NEPA that the ground is frozen that far down. Coal is a great source of heat but I wouldn't put it in for a permenant source of heat. Not every one wants to deal with it.
samler17
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harmon Mark III
Other Heating: Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: Mark III

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: Berlin On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:20 pm

I don't know about PA, but in upstate (adirondack/lake champlain area) people have had issues with frozen wells, not just gound loop; clearly this can be overcome by drilling deeper and more wells, and it's likely that the system's design was at fault, but it's something to be cautious of when a low bidder says they need to drill fewer wells than a competitor etc.

The thing is, if people were wiling to spend a little more money on their coal system, they could have completely automated operation, people are willing to sink 20K into geo, but balk at the idea of spending a few K more on a large, below grade bin, feed and ash augers. Spend a few bucks on making your coal system automated.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:13 pm

Let me make another point. Firstly, this board is friendly and filled with smart guys but let's not be frightened to give an opinion as long as it is not offensive. I for one have no vested interest in anthracite. Do you really think I am having fun humping 16 tons a year around and dealing with the ashes. Do you think that (for instance) cold fusion was a realty I would not dump you guys in an instant? On my part, I have carefully evaluated the alternatives and nothing else even comes close - trust me - NO CONTEST. So for now VIVA anthracite. Of course, technology changes but not in the next 50 years will coal be beat and by then I will be dead. Warm, toasty but dead.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93,
Baseburners & Antiques: Invader 2 Wings Best, Glenwood #8 + Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22