GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:41 am

Well Nortcan you have confirmed to me that you are a very smart man. In your neck of the woods heating is 90% of your energy problems.Forget the 6 weeks where you may or may not need air conditioning. Ground water is about 44F where you are and so you pull energy from 44F down to about 35F to get the heat. That means most is done mostly by electricity through the heat pump. By the end of winter even with the slinkies your ground will start to freeze up -straight pipe in Qc - no chance. I am not going to repeat myself, it's just a silly idea. Forget the testimonials of people that have wasted money and are now trying to justify it to themselves - that is human nature and we all do it when we do stupid things. I could give you a list of the stupid things I have done but there is a limit on message length. Total conversion to anthracite is not an opinion my little excel spread sheet does not lie. Politicians and installers do.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: nortcan On: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:49 pm

coalnewbie wrote:Well Nortcan you have confirmed to me that you are a very smart man. In your neck of the woods heating is 90% of your energy problems.Forget the 6 weeks where you may or may not need air conditioning. Ground water is about 44F where you are and so you pull energy from 44F down to about 35F to get the heat. That means most is done mostly by electricity through the heat pump. By the end of winter even with the slinkies your ground will start to freeze up -straight pipe in Qc - no chance. I am not going to repeat myself, it's just a silly idea. Forget the testimonials of people that have wasted money and are now trying to justify it to themselves - that is human nature and we all do it when we do stupid things. I could give you a list of the stupid things I have done but there is a limit on message length. Total conversion to anthracite is not an opinion my little excel spread sheet does not lie. Politicians and installers do.


I read somewhere that with Geo. Syst. some had higher electricity bills. Maybe the pumps/circulators...I don't know but if I had decided to go with Geo. I couldn't support having higher hydro bills. I must also admit that what you mentioned about ground freezing was also a negative point for Geo. in my mind.
Anyway, I my mind, DIY kits seem attractive but I forgot that dream. ANTHRACITE is the reality and I experience and enjoy it every days. 5 pounds this morning (not very cold here but need some heat) for a 12 Hrs no-touch steady heat. No geo. can beat that.
nortcan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Stuart,Peterson/ Grander
Stove/Furnace Model: Sunnyside/ Golden Bride

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: SMITTY On: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:02 pm

In all that I've read on the net about geo, I can't fathom how it could even be considered an option north of the Mason-Dixon. I have read VERY few positive comments on it.

And the day I drop $20 grand on one thing in one shot ? That'll be the day hell is frozen block solid.

For that price I could probably convince some welfare recipients in a neighboring city to come over and handle the loading/ashing chores for me. :idea:
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler


Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:27 am

For that price I could probably convince some welfare recipients in a neighboring city to come over and handle the loading/ashing chores for me.


Sorry Smitty, but as you know for years is has been illegal in MA for you to do your own plumbing and last week MA passed a law outlawing a service loading or ashing coal stoves without a license..... and todays date is..... :partyhat:

However, you are right to be scared as they could......

.... I'm from MA but I feel like an American toothy toothy toothy
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:41 am

Oh, BTW Smiity, South of the MD line ground temperatures go up to 54F and it's useless for heating and cooling.

Score another one for the ecolunies.

Now Obummer wants to dramatically reduce imported oil so hear that we are going to fuel the country with daffodils --- we ran out of corn for ethanol and now it has been limit up for three days so load up on cornflakes. Chevy Volt sales have now soared to 950 cars in four months. That should change the course of energy usage for the country. :mad:
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: nortcan On: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:00 am

One question still in my head about soil temp. for geo syst. If we compare a ground geo. syst. with an air to air heat pump, a heat pump can heat at about -5* C or 24*F and still be profitable, about 2 for 1 ratio. Some high performance heat pumps can be even better than that. So why say that a geo. syst. (it's a heat pump no?) couldn't heat and be profitable with a liquid at a higher Temp. than -5* C 24*F? It's supposed to be easier to rise the Temp. from 5*C 40*F and have a higher COP +or=3.3 for heating and a cooling EER +or=14.1 when having a higher Temp. media. Just a question in my head.
Thanks
nortcan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Stuart,Peterson/ Grander
Stove/Furnace Model: Sunnyside/ Golden Bride

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:16 pm

My suggestion to the moderator is that this is getting to be the time to move this thread. Don't want to bore the coalies to death.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 110K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93, Jotul 507
Baseburners & Antiques: Red Cross Invader 2
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: homecomfort On: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:32 pm

Geo Thermal is great in concept, and can work well, saving alot of energy, pollution and money. I have installed several systems, but found that the engineers took a simple process, and made a huge deal out of it, mostly for profit I guess. It can be simple, and affordable. I am working on a hybrid prototype, that will bring the cost way down. I still like my coal stove though .
homecomfort
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco-Belge,+ Penn Stove
Stove/Furnace Model: Normandie, + Chubby

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: homecomfort On: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:52 pm

the problem with all geothermal systems. is that they " threw the baby out with the bath water". By not utilizing the energy available in the air, using the ground only as a supplement, very deep wells need to be drilled, and the possibility of frozen ground exists. In the future, hybrid systems will over come the high cost. It is nice to just turn up T-stat, when I do not want to tend to the coal stove.
homecomfort
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco-Belge,+ Penn Stove
Stove/Furnace Model: Normandie, + Chubby

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: homecomfort On: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:58 pm

HEAT PUMPS are the way of the future. for space heating , cooling, and domestic water heating. It is the only mechanism that returns 3 to 5 times the amount of energy required to run. when properly sized and designed. Coal is a great source of warm cozy heat, use my stove all winter, but I am not married to it, and need a modern,efficient, clean automatic system.
homecomfort
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco-Belge,+ Penn Stove
Stove/Furnace Model: Normandie, + Chubby

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: Yanche On: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:29 pm

I'd sure like to see the technical analysis that show a 3-5 times the energy return from a heat pump. Over 50% of the electricity produced in the USA is produced by burning coal. It's an inefficient process. Most of the BTU content of the coal is lost by first producing steam, then more losses occur when you use that steam to turn the turbine to generate the electricity. Even more losses occur to transport that electricity to your home. The end result is depending on the details, only 30% of the BTU heating value in coal makes it to your home. In contrast the coal you burn heats your home, except for what goes out the flue pipe. Like I said show me your technical analysis.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: McGiever On: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:51 pm

No disrespect intended...
Simply stated, "Fuel Calculators" use Electricity Resistance Heating at 100% efficiency for what passes through the watt meter and is paid for by the customer...it is from that baseline that ground source heat pumps achieve their 300-500% efficiency.

BTW, I use both GSHP and coal.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: tom69z On: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:15 pm

allot of people blow 10-12K on switching to coal, to re-coupe the investment usually takes 7+ yrs.... that allot of ash disposal, and coal hauling, shoveling etc before you see the payback. just some things to consider.
tom69z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Thermo-Dynamics HT Oil Boiler
Stove/Furnace Model: none currently

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: homecomfort On: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:28 am

coefficient of performance. c.o.p. heat pumps can and do return 3x's or more heat than the electric consumed. much newer and technical than producing heat by combustion. seems some are confused about air source and ground source heat pumps. stick with coal if that is what you know best.
homecomfort
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco-Belge,+ Penn Stove
Stove/Furnace Model: Normandie, + Chubby

Re: GEO-THERMAL HEATING / COOLING SYSTEMS

PostBy: rockwood On: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:34 am

homecomfort wrote:coefficient of performance. c.o.p. heat pumps can and do return 3x's or more heat than the electric consumed. much newer and technical than producing heat by combustion. seems some are confused about air source and ground source heat pumps. stick with coal if that is what you know best.

Why don't you help dispel the confusion by responding to Yanche?
Yanche wrote:I'd sure like to see the technical analysis that show a 3-5 times the energy return from a heat pump.
rockwood
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Stokermatic coal furnace
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