New Boiler Temps

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: cabinover On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:03 am

I wouldn't get excited about a boiler that cannot or will not heat itself to design temp when the ambient air is already 60-70° above normal winter temps.

Throw a barometric damper at it like mentioned here a time or two, and pics of the firebox without a fire would help. That may or may not have been mentioned here a time or two also.
cabinover
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid Axeman Anderson 130
Baseburners & Antiques: Sparkle #12
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Buckwheat, Nut
Other Heating: LP Hot air. WA TX for coal use.

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: europachris On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:38 am

This whole thread leaves me feeling like a brain surgeon performing surgery over a bad phone line talking to a deaf person that's describing how to do it to a blind person.

Can anyone take a trip and actually look at this setup for our OP? I simply can't fathom how a boiler can burn so much coal and yet not heat a single thing, including itself. Is there some sort of coal "black hole" inside this thing?

13 pages in this thread with no pictures that really help and few answers to our questions.

This is why hi-end audio is successful.....people who spend $5,000 on a set of speaker cables with silver wire are going to think they are the best thing since oxygen was invented because they are never going to admit they suck (and they were suckered).
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: Sting On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:05 am

europachris wrote:This whole thread leaves me feeling like a brain surgeon performing surgery over a bad phone line talking to a deaf person that's describing how to do it to a blind person.


Yes it does -- Good analogy

I am done with this guy -- not that I was any help in the operation. Just - I get tired of the chase.

Looking for a new challenge and it won't ever be a hard wood floor again.
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

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Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:16 am

How about macdabs = troll? Just jerking your chain? Or more correctly our collective chains.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: cabinover On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:42 am

europachris wrote:.

This is why hi-end audio is successful.....people who spend $5,000 on a set of speaker cables with silver wire are going to think they are the best thing since oxygen was invented because they are never going to admit they suck (and they were suckered).


Wanna buy some oxygen-free, molecule straightened, directional 1 meter interconnects for $2K? How's 'bout some majik rocks to make the tunes flow from your stereo system better? :D
cabinover
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid Axeman Anderson 130
Baseburners & Antiques: Sparkle #12
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Buckwheat, Nut
Other Heating: LP Hot air. WA TX for coal use.

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: whistlenut On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:48 am

No comment!
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:01 pm

macdabs wrote:I installed the new Samson valve. Boiler temps have remained steady at 145* a 25 degree increase over previous . I can see the vent doors open when I bank the fire something that was unnoticable before with the other Samson valve. My shop has not called for heat most of the weekend since the temps were warmer and was already at 65 to start with. I bumped the temp to 69 yesterday and the boiler continued to stay at 140*. :) I am not going to get to excited since it was already 60 out yesterday and It took two wheel barrow loads of coal to get the boiler from 60* to 145*. I did see 160* for 25 min. mid afternoon Sunday :) . I should be able to get some pics of the firebox this week. And I know I need to install a Baro damper but, I have been averaging .04 with my draft with the MPD and need to get on the roof and lift 16 ft of double wall SS flue pipe to do it. :o .

Mac


Two wheel barrow loads of coal to raise 80 gallons of water 85 degrees F!? CALL THE DEALER AND TELL THEM TO BRING A TRUCK. Unless there is something really crazy going on here, it should certainly be able to reach operating temperature with no load on it. I understand that you are not running a baro, but your draft is not out of line at all. I have run a handfed boiler with a draft around -0.08, and I had the opposite problem as you. That thing would going into meltdown with no load on a windy day. The bottom line is that this boiler is listed as wood or coal capable, and it does not reach temperature when fired with anthracite...if the dealer cannot find something wrong with your installation or firing technique, then they need to make things right with you.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: Coalfire On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:50 pm

markviii wrote:
macdabs wrote:I installed the new Samson valve. Boiler temps have remained steady at 145* a 25 degree increase over previous . I can see the vent doors open when I bank the fire something that was unnoticable before with the other Samson valve. My shop has not called for heat most of the weekend since the temps were warmer and was already at 65 to start with. I bumped the temp to 69 yesterday and the boiler continued to stay at 140*. :) I am not going to get to excited since it was already 60 out yesterday and It took two wheel barrow loads of coal to get the boiler from 60* to 145*. I did see 160* for 25 min. mid afternoon Sunday :) . I should be able to get some pics of the firebox this week. And I know I need to install a Baro damper but, I have been averaging .04 with my draft with the MPD and need to get on the roof and lift 16 ft of double wall SS flue pipe to do it. :o .

Mac


Two wheel barrow loads of coal to raise 80 gallons of water 85 degrees F!? CALL THE DEALER AND TELL THEM TO BRING A TRUCK. Unless there is something really crazy going on here, it should certainly be able to reach operating temperature with no load on it. I understand that you are not running a baro, but your draft is not out of line at all. I have run a handfed boiler with a draft around -0.08, and I had the opposite problem as you. That thing would going into meltdown with no load on a windy day. The bottom line is that this boiler is listed as wood or coal capable, and it does not reach temperature when fired with anthracite...if the dealer cannot find something wrong with your installation or firing technique, then they need to make things right with you.



He has a coal boiler. The only differance is the wood only ones have more air adjustments up top. I actually stoped at the manufactur to look at these boilers, just a firebox with a water jacket around and a baffel in the top to keep the heat in. I talked to my coal guy who has one and said it will run him out of the house. I was suprised at how simple these boilers are, I am still wondering about setup and technique.

I am where you are Markviii I am at a loss also


Eric
Coalfire
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 96K btu Circulator
Coal Size/Type: Nut

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: titleist1 On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:00 pm

europachris wrote:This is why hi-end audio is successful.....people who spend $5,000 on a set of speaker cables with silver wire are going to think they are the best thing since oxygen was invented because they are never going to admit they suck (and they were suckered).


Please don't badmouth the hi-end audio folks....
one of them just paid me $150 for an OMR album (YES, CTTE from early '80's that I never opened) because it sounds better than a CD to their ear! :D :D
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: cabinover On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:37 pm

Good for you titleist. You know what P.T. Barnum said...

I've thrown good money at audio equipment myself but lots of folks make me look like a piker. I've never put my tubes in a freezer though :D Then again I've never been able to afford multi-thousand dollar tube amps either to hear the difference.
cabinover
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Hybrid Axeman Anderson 130
Baseburners & Antiques: Sparkle #12
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Buckwheat, Nut
Other Heating: LP Hot air. WA TX for coal use.

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: oliver power On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:39 pm

Yanche wrote:How about macdabs = troll? Just jerking your chain? Or more correctly our collective chains.
That thought has also crossed my mind........I'm with Sting. I'm done with this guy. Nothing makes sense. He doesn't seem to follow through with any advise / theories he's been given. He's burnt a lot of coal, and can't even heat water. I think he's playing us.......and has done a good job of it.
Last edited by oliver power on Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II)
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)
Stove/Furnace Make: HITZER / KEYSTOKER
Stove/Furnace Model: 50-93 & 30-95 , Kaa-2

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: Sting On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:44 pm

So -- we find we can't help the guy

WE grow tired and give up = example: me

THEN we begin to label the guy with names

Ill bet the pay back is going to be a bitch


Image
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: europachris On: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:31 pm

oliver power wrote: He's burnt a lot of coal, and can't even heat water.


Is that like "couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat" or "couldn't pour water out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel"?

I agree this whole episode seems like a bad dream or endless reruns of "Groundhog Day". Nevertheless, we shouldn't drag this thread off onto some totally unrelated path or degenerate into childish antics....we do that enough already elsewhere around here.

This is one of those situations that drives me NUTS at work, i.e. you just know something is wrong, but you can't find it, but it's not bad enough to call it "defective" or "broken". To wit: I got called down to the floor to troubleshoot an electric forklift that made it 75 feet under it's own power before the controller went tits-up and threw a "D-FET SHORT" code (which is bad AND expensive). I found the truck would operate fine when connected to a remote battery, but not when connected to the battery installed in it. I chalked it up to a battery that needed maintenance (cleaning), with excessive voltage leakage to the frame of the forklift. But I knew that batteries in the field were never well maintained and this wasn't a problem except this ONE unit.

I went around and around with various people including our service support and training departments and they agreed something was wrong with it, but nothing I measured (volts, amps, wiring) or inspected pointed to a cause. Finally we decided it had to be the drive motor, even though my DVM said it was OK. I borrowed a Fluke insulation tester from the training building and measured each phase to the case. Spec was 1 Meg. at 500V, and I got 1.2 Meg minimum. It's good, right? Well, we tested other new motors as a reference and at first I thought something was wrong with the meter. I was seeing 660 Meg. (full scale high) on the meter.... HUH??? We retested the suspect motor and this time heard a faint "sizzling" noise from inside the motor, still getting the 1.2 Meg. reading. I told them to change the motor, praying it would be the problem.

Turns out that replacing the motor cured the mysterious controller error code (thank GOD!). I then figured that someone dropped a screw in the motor during assembly so I thought I'd take a good look before sending the motor back to the supplier as defective and have THEM find the screw. I didn't find a screw, but after disassembling the motor, I DID find a tiny "hair" of wire sticking out from the paper slot insulation between the stator bars and touching the rotor. I could see the faint ring around the rotor where the wire was rubbing and a little scorch mark where the arcing occurred during the insulation test. :D

The point of my little story is that I think we aren't getting the whole story or all the data. Plumbing schematics, pump layout and models, detailed pictures, etc. are all absent. There is probably one key detail that will be the "Oh Schitt" moment for all of us. Or, maybe it truly is a matter of a poorly designed boiler for anthracite. I postulated (love that word) about gas flow differences between wood and coal combustion....and I still think that the relatively calm and uniform flow of gasses through the anthracite coal bed do not have enough "energy" to wash the cooler boundary layer of air from the walls of the boiler. The heat just can't transfer properly. Proper stack temp measurements would tell us that..... With wood, the highly varied combustion flows cause turbulence that washes the cooler air layer away and transfers the heat to the water better. Or, he could be throwing kiln dried pallet wood in there by the pickup load with flames shooting out the top of the stack........
europachris
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 350/Iron Fireman
Stove/Furnace Model: Custom bituminous burner

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: macdabs On: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:09 am

:| :| Hey guys slow down!! I appreciate the help not the slamming.. Let me explain a few things . The problem with this boiler has me upset to the max not to mention the amount of $$$$ I have in this project.

I know I need to take pictures of the fire box . I appreciate the help and advice everybody has given! I changed coal types three times , purchased a manometer, removed the primary loop,added 2 ft more flue pipe and a MPD. MY ears our open!!! MY wallet has been open !! I have called the dealer ... I have had two commercial plumbing guys with 20 years in the industry look at the boiler several times.. both say take it back or sell it for scrap..

Why I have not installed a Baro damper yet or taken pictures of the fire box?? ...... Time!!! Time!!! My day starts at 4 am in the morning and ends at 10:00 at night . I have several employees and fires to put out all day long and my personel life with all the problems including,my family :( ,all the pet projects takes a back seat to my business. I am a type A to the max...My wife adds to "ss" to the end of that also!

Enough of the bio.. I asked this before .. "Show me who is heating with a DS Boiler with zone pumps ?How much sq ft.are you heating? When can I see it?" So far in my area one has been returned the other has replaced the Samson valve and chain also. They are heating eight cast rads with gravity.

Mac
macdabs
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS 260
Coal Size/Type: Pea
Other Heating: Pellet,oil
Stove/Furnace Make: AHS
Stove/Furnace Model: S260

Re: New Boiler Temps

PostBy: macdabs On: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:09 am

:| :| Hey guys slow down!! I appreciate the help not the slamming.. Let me explain a few things . The problem with this boiler has me upset to the max not to mention the amount of $$$$ I have in this project.

I know I need to take pictures of the fire box . I appreciate the help and advice everybody has given! I changed coal types three times , purchased a manometer, removed the primary loop,added 2 ft more flue pipe and a MPD. MY ears our open!!! MY wallet has been open !! I have called the dealer ... I have had two commercial plumbing guys with 20 years in the industry look at the boiler several times.. both say take it back or sell it for scrap..

Why I have not installed a Baro damper yet or taken pictures of the fire box?? ...... Time!!! Time!!! My day starts at 4 am in the morning and ends at 10:00 at night . I have several employees and fires to put out all day long and my personel life with all the problems including,my family :( ,all the pet projects takes a back seat to my business. I am a type A to the max...My wife adds to "ss" to the end of that also!

Enough of the bio.. I asked this before .. "Show me who is heating with a DS Boiler with zone pumps ?How much sq ft.are you heating? When can I see it?" So far in my area one has been returned the other has replaced the Samson valve and chain also. They are heating eight cast rads with gravity.

Mac
macdabs
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS 260
Coal Size/Type: Pea
Other Heating: Pellet,oil
Stove/Furnace Make: AHS
Stove/Furnace Model: S260

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