Is There a Down Side by Installing a Barometric Damper?

 
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coaledsweat
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Post by coaledsweat » Fri. Dec. 02, 2011 12:20 pm

cabinover wrote: *-EDIT-*

After looking around I found this PDF file that explains it a little differently. Still, the sliding apparatus is not a damper and shouldn't be counted on as one.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Fi ... way37.pdf/
I couldn't see anything about what your talking about in that link but quite often stoves and boilers have a sliding damper to redirect exhaust gases so when you open the loading door the smoke doesn't come rolling out into the room.


 
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spiker
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Post by spiker » Fri. Dec. 02, 2011 2:31 pm

My 2 cents:

I have a manual and then a baro to give me options for controlling the draft. For safety never put the baro before the manual.

Spring and Fall when I burn wood, I remove the baro completely and replace it with a metal cap. If you leave it in, it gets covered in soot and I'm pretty sure that changes the effectiveness because you have the weight of soot on only one side of a balanced plate.

 
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Post by slovak » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 9:34 am

Hi All; The wood knob pull thingy is a secondary draft. My WM 400 had a mini grate on the front loading door for this function. It is a little old, mind you, but the manual suggested it be used in starting new fires, and then closed. It created a draft across the top of the fire bed, inhancing burning and also in removal of smoke etc. In the four years of burning my new Hitzer ( 50-93 ), ( it does not have this feature ), I will slightly open the front loading door and will get the same results. Now this is only during start up, and under constant observation. On another note, it was my impression that a baro draft was used to cure " Draft Problems", and that if a stove was performing well it was not needed. And as for operating temp, never gave it much thought, burned for comfort, never had to burn the WM 400 or the Hitzer to its maximum. And by the way these comments are only my opinion, and as we all know opinions are like Ars Holes, everybody has one. Above all if some comment or adjustment causes you concern procede with utmost caution....

 
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Post by GaryFerg » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 9:52 am

Will a carbon Monoxide detector even sense coal gas co2?

 
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Post by franco b » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 9:57 am

[quote="davfel"]hello all,

I also own a Riteway model 37 that I have 2 water jackets welded onto the top and side and hooked up to my boiler. I also put another secondary burn mod on my stove consisting of a valve and 3/4 inch pipe with holes drilled in it on the inside of the stove getting its warm air feed from the jacket that covers the factory secondary burn. I burn both wood and coal. I do not use a barometric damper and I do not want to start any arguments, but they are overated in my opinion. I also do not use a manual damper. I control the heat of my stove with the bimetallic strip that is on the side. There is no need for a barometric or manual damper if you can control the heat of the stove and the heat up the flue with the stove's control, then there is absolutely no need for either damper, because it does not matter where you slow the air down going through the stove, whether it is before the fire or after. As far as keeping more heat in the stove that is a myth. All that is done with a barometric damper is air is pulled from the room and mixes with the stoves exhaust and cools it down keeping the chimney cooler and putting less of a vacuum on the stove because part of the exhaust up ther chimney comes from the room, which in turn, causes the stove to burn slower because there is less draft. (which alkso is an energy loss by the way) Now if you can not control the draft with the stoves control then the dampers are good to get for your stove. Usually that means that the stove is not airtight or has leaks some where and starts to burn out of control, allowing most of the heat to go up the chimney and burning most of your wood or coal. There is one other advantage to a barometric damper is that it is somewhat automatic, but on my stove which is the riteway model 37, the bimetallic thermostat keeps the stove pretty much at one temperature, especially with coal. Wood, on the other hand, fluctuates constantly because the amount of fuel changes very rapidly, even more so when you are burning cleanly. That is, no smoke from the chimney. And, by the way all, just remember the basic principle of any combustion, (outside of wet wood) if it smokes there is too much fuel (wood i.e.) and not enough air and it is not efficient. You then are losing heat up the chimney by not burning all of the volatiles. In the case of anthracite coal you are losing invisible burnable gases up the chimney.

Thanks for your time,

Dave[/quote
Excellent post.
There was some confusion by the OP as to CO2 and CO. He will need a CO detector as well.

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Post by Vinmaker » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 10:07 am

At the risk of starting a spirited conversation, I would tend to agree with Davfel on this " All that is done with a barometric damper is air is pulled from the room and mixes with the stoves exhaust and cools it down keeping the chimney cooler and putting less of a vacuum on the stove because part of the exhaust up ther chimney comes from the room, which in turn, causes the stove to burn slower because there is less draft. "

I think the whole point of a baro damper is that in windy conditions, the baro allows air from the room to fulfill the sucking of air up the chimney when the winds blows across it. This of course lessens the amount of air that will be/would be sucked thru the firebox (from underneath for coal stoves) thereby allowing the coal to burn at a more steady rate.

While it is true that the coal may burn steady, one needs to question the amount of energy savings since clearly the warm room air is being sucked out of the room and up the chimney. The question then is where does this replacement air come from? I would argue if comes from leaks in the house. So then what one is left with is a fireplace type effect. Those with fireplaces know that they tend to suck heat up the chimney and cool the far corners of the house. This is mainly due to outside cold air replacing the air that goes up the chimney. It stands to reason that a baro will cause this to happen also, albeit at a much lesser extent.

But I doubt nature is so easily fooled. I still believe that on windy conditions, air is being drawn out of the chimney due to fluctuations in air pressure caused by the wind blowing across the top of the flue. The air is going to be sucked out of the house one way or another - whether thru the baro or the stove's firebox. Either way, the warm air in the room is lost! :(

The funny thing is that I have always used a manual damper and on windy days the stove would really crank due to this increased draft. The stove would glow like crazy and you had to close the bottom air vents to calm it down. But I also felt that it was such a wonderful thing since on cold windy days I felt like the wind was stripping heat out of my house but my stove was naturally compensating for this by pumping out more heat to keep my family warm. :) I love my coal stove!! Such a nice way to live in harmony with nature.

Vin.

 
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Post by lsayre » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 10:33 am

If the same volume of gasses are going out the chimney anyway, then I would vote for a fair portion of them being room temperature air, rather than 100% of it being 200 degree plus stove gasses (which include loads of room air). The only way around this would be to provide outside air to the stove (which can be done regardless of MPD or Baro-D).


 
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Post by franco b » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 10:47 am

Vinmaker wrote: The funny thing is that I have always used a manual damper and on windy days the stove would really crank due to this increased draft. The stove would glow like crazy and you had to close the bottom air vents to calm it down. But I also felt that it was such a wonderful thing since on cold windy days I felt like the wind was stripping heat out of my house but my stove was naturally compensating for this by pumping out more heat to keep my family warm. :) I love my coal stove!! Such a nice way to live in harmony with nature.
You conclusions about using a baro are pretty much true but so many users have reported lower coal usage using one.

Most also want to avoid a glowing stove.

 
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Post by Vinmaker » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 10:52 am

"Most also want to avoid a glowing stove." lol. Point well taken.

 
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Post by nortcan » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 10:57 am

I think that if a stove is """"perfectly""""built, no baro no MPD are needed.

 
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Post by rockwood » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 1:04 pm

Until I found this forum back in 2008, I had never seen (or don't remember ever seeing) a barometric damper on a hand fired space heater coal stove, however I had seen them on coal stoker furnaces of all sizes, all oil furnaces and some large natural gas fired boilers. Check dampers and stove pipe dampers (manual pipe dampers) were the "norm" for hand fired stoves around here. Barometric dampers for coal furnaces were recommended for chimneys with excessive draft, not really to compensate for windy conditions. Obviously it is true that heated air is pulled into baro dampers but this really isn't an issue in boiler/furnace rooms where draft hoods etc. are common. In living areas of the house a baro does take some efficiency away form the stove, however depending on the stove, it could be a small sacrifice compared to the efficiency that would be lost if a baro were not used.
nortcan wrote:I think that if a stove is """"perfectly""""built, no baro no MPD are needed.
You're right nortcan. A properly functioning base burner/base heater type stove for instance will not need a baro damper but other stoves, like warm morning stoves, can benefit greatly from them. Just because a stove requires a damper doesn't mean it's a bad stove, it's just the way they were designed. I actually like warm morning stoves, especially for burning soft coal.
I will say this though, for the last couple years I have been studying up on these base burner/base heater type stoves (thanks to members of this forum) and I am convinced they are superior to any other anthracite burning space heater stove. If anthracite coal were available here, I would have one of these stoves. ;)

 
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Post by nortcan » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 1:33 pm

You know, the Vig II don't need a Baro nor a MPD ( and said in the owners manual). If a stove has a long path for the gasses (Vig II has it) and is AS AIRTIGHT AS POSSIBLE , no need for baro or MPD.
The Vig II is not the best stove but it has some great points.

 
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Post by davfel » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 1:38 pm

hello,

also for what it's worth, my stove the riteway 37, will drastically increase the flue temp when wood is added because the wood gases burn off the wood and ignite. It is not unusual for the flue temps to go to 700 or 800 degrees from 350 degrees for 5 minutes or so ,while in normal burn mode. Now, if I had a barometric damper that would stop the drastic jump in heat because the draft would be cut way back as soon as it started to secondary burn. Then in theory, more heat would be kept in the stove, but that is not true. What really happens is the stove does not go into secondary burn and the fuel (smoke) that is burning, goes out the chimney as smoke, instead of burning. So 2 things happen, dirty burniong and less heat from the stove because the fuel (smoke) is going up the chimeny. There is always a trade off. It is quite a tricky thing to control and still get good efficiency. Which also brings another topic to mind, efficiency. It is just about next to impossible to measure efficiency on a coal or wood stove, even though, manufacturors claim near an 80% efficiency. Now common sense tells you, that if flue temps are 450 degrees and stove temps are 450 degrees (a common burn), at best, you are looking at 50% efficient, probably more like 30% if you actually had a way of really measuring the temps. In my opinion the best thing that any burner can do is to try and effectively burn all of the gases that come from wood or coal. That is, make the chimney as smokeless as possible. Just let the flue temps go where they go without overfiring the stove or pipes.

Just my observations,

Thanks,
Dave

 
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Post by franco b » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 6:12 pm

davfel wrote: Now common sense tells you, that if flue temps are 450 degrees and stove temps are 450 degrees (a common burn), at best, you are looking at 50% efficient, probably more like 30% if you actually had a way of really measuring the temps.
Not true. If a stove has 18 square feet of radiating surface at 450 degrees it is radiating far more heat than a smoke pipe at 450 degrees because the smoke pipe has far less surface. It requires far fewer BTU to heat the smoke pipe. The ratio of heat exchange surface of the stove to the smoke pipe would determine the proportion of heat going to the chimney assuming both to be at the same temperature.

In a laboratory efficiency can be measured in a sealed room with a measured air flow. The increase of the air temperature versus the pounds of fuel burned determines the efficiency.

 
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Post by wsherrick » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 6:26 pm

franco b wrote:
davfel wrote: Now common sense tells you, that if flue temps are 450 degrees and stove temps are 450 degrees (a common burn), at best, you are looking at 50% efficient, probably more like 30% if you actually had a way of really measuring the temps.
Not true. If a stove has 18 square feet of radiating surface at 450 degrees it is radiating far more heat than a smoke pipe at 450 degrees because the smoke pipe has far less surface. It requires far fewer BTU to heat the smoke pipe. The ratio of heat exchange surface of the stove to the smoke pipe would determine the proportion of heat going to the chimney assuming both to be at the same temperature.

In a laboratory efficiency can be measured in a sealed room with a measured air flow. The increase of the air temperature versus the pounds of fuel burned determines the efficiency.
Francob is correct. However, by watching the amount of fuel comsumption, stove surface temperatures and stack temperature you can determine pretty well how the stove is performing. I'm not a big believer in the barometric damper and don't have them on my stoves. If I had a stove that operated at the efficiencies stated above, I would throw it out. Again you must understand that there are two types of effficiency in a heating appliance no matter what kind. One, how much of the potiential heat in the fuel is converted to heat versus how much is lost due to improper combustion and two; once the heat is generated how much of the created heat is put into the area to be heated versus lost up the chimney or due to other losses. There are huge variations in the efficiencies of various types of coal stoves, some are much better than others.


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