coal vs wind

So if we really have about 500,000 electric cars on the road by 2015 as our leader suggests and take out all those nuclear plants (we know that is coming) and close all those nasty coal plants (courtesy of the EPA) as then let's just pause a minute to think what that means. It really means decarbonizing the electric grid.... hmmmmm.

To decarbonize the national grid would require another 30 - 40 GW of green generating power, or "the equivalent of a hundred large offshore wind-farms," according to the chief economist of the CCC. These would need to be large indeed. Assuming a rated capacity per turbine of 5 MW, and a capacity factor (actual output) of 30%, we have 1.5 MW for each. Thus we need around 20,000 - 27,000 turbines to produce 30 - 40 GW of power. So that means 100 wind-farms with 200 - 270 turbines each. If one turbine per day were manufactured, no mean feat given present manufacturing capacity, the process would take 55 - 74 years to complete, with the installation of them as a separate effort. As noted in previous posts, there is the further question of whether there will be sufficient quantities of rare earth elements (REEs) available on the world markets to make the turbine magnets which need about one tonne of neodymium per 4 MW of rated capacity. At present Nissan can't even make enough LEAFs as a result of that shortage.

Dollar getting clubbed like a baby seal today, oil through the roof.

So I wonder when the govt acknowledges the importance of coal.

A massive transition to wind and/or solar will bankrupt the average Joe several times over. Didn't President Obama say that energy costs must "necessarily skyrocket"? Enough solar panels on my roof to supply only about 50% of my needs would set me back more than 57 grand when all of the requisite ancillary stuff is included. A wind turbine big enough to do the job would set me back about 85 grand. Since I'm not a cat, I couldn't live enough lifetimes to get any payback from wind or solar. I opted for a coal fired boiler instead.

Even if we had those 27,000 off shore turbines on line today, it would not power us. ALL wind power NEEDS a 100% back up. How will that be done? Sorry to be the bearer of what some see as bad news, but we had better get over the nuclear fear and start doing nuclear safely and soon.

Freddy wrote:Even if we had those 27,000 off shore turbines on line today, it would not power us. ALL wind power NEEDS a 100% back up. How will that be done? Sorry to be the bearer of what some see as bad news, but we had better get over the nuclear fear and start doing nuclear safely and soon.

You are so right Freddy, I'd sure hate to be under the knife for a serious or even routine surgery depending on wind or solar power for the hospital's electrical needs. Neither wing or solar can replace the reliable electricity we get from coal or nuclear plants and the "tree huggers" and EPA had best recognize that tout suite. Lisa

I agree---wind blows... And unfortunately---it doesn't always blow... The real problem is: The morons we've elected hate coal; even though, it's the single best energy source for residential heating and power generation.

Gee---what would happen if a tsunami hit a huge coal power plant? Probably not much...

lsayre wrote:A massive transition to wind and/or solar will bankrupt the average Joe several times over. Didn't President Obama say that energy costs must "necessarily skyrocket"? Enough solar panels on my roof to supply only about 50% of my needs would set me back more than 57 grand when all of the requisite ancillary stuff is included. A wind turbine big enough to do the job would set me back about 85 grand. Since I'm not a cat, I couldn't live enough lifetimes to get any payback from wind or solar. I opted for a coal fired boiler instead.

Bankrupting the USA IS the plan. Nothing that is happening makes sense until you realize economic destabilization is the goal. I know, you all think I'm nuts. We should eating our corn, be drilling and refining our own oil, building natural gas, coal, and nuke power plants. When the national debt is paid off if there is some money left over then it can be thrown away on pv's and wind mills! Regulating CO2 is BS!!! And no I don't feel better now, because unless people wake up nothing is going to change for the better.

Nothing nuts in any of that. Good common sense in fact!

The reason why energy costs must "necessarily skyrocket" (quoting the President) is so these totally unaffordable and unworkable alternatives can play on a more level field with the solutions that are economical and workable. That line of reasoning is what is nuts!!!

If we had all the wind powered generators & solar panels already in place you are all correct in saying they are not 100% by any means but I don`t remember anyone saying that all our present sources of power would be torn down. We would simply have to rely on them less, perhaps modernize some to produce power a bit cheaper & cleaner. Same way if everyone would replace the light bulbs when they burn out with those hated ones, it would add up to a tremendous savings of energy. Its just that people get used to certain things that become taken for granted & everyone hates to change, simply human nature.

samhill wrote:If we had all the wind powered generators & solar panels already in place you are all correct in saying they are not 100% by any means but I don`t remember anyone saying that all our present sources of power would be torn down. We would simply have to rely on them less, perhaps modernize some to produce power a bit cheaper & cleaner. Same way if everyone would replace the light bulbs when they burn out with those hated ones, it would add up to a tremendous savings of energy. Its just that people get used to certain things that become taken for granted & everyone hates to change, simply human nature.

If we all had wings we could fly.

But you would still need power, & it would be really nasty in bad weather.

Yes, let's go back to the 1300's with windmills. I have another idea, we can train horses to walk on a treadmill to pump water or work a bellows in the 21st Century Blacksmith shop.
It wasn't until man discovered coal and learned how to make wheels turn with steam that the world advanced from a dark, brutal place where hunger was common place and death at an early age was the norm. The modern world we have enjoyed since the 1880's or so up till now is based on the the abundance of economically produced energy be it from coal, gas or oil. The abundance of these fuels have brought untold blessing to mankind. To remove them with the thought of replacing them with absurd ideas like windmills or solar panels is a ridiculous premise.

Offshore wind farm is a dream of our current MD governor. He wants to push through this dream at an estimated cost of 3 billion (the last figure i heard) that will be passed along to the consumer. however, the estimated cost overruns quickly push that figure to 6-7 billion. One glitch so far is that the greenies that love the idea of the offshore windmills are against all plans necessary to cable that power to the people in MD that would be paying for it.

There are a number of these wind farms in NYS and many of the people that were for them in the beginning are starting to do an about face. There are a number of reasons for this. A couple of the big ones are the fact that most of the electricity produced apparently is not even used in the area and residence see no benefits from them. Noise is also an issue with the large turbines, much more than originally anticipated. Also these large turbines can cause issues with area water wells also due to the massive weight and foundations especially for very shallow wells. Here is a site that deals with the wind farm on the east side of I-390 in the Prattsburg NY area.

http://xray.rutgers.edu/~matilsky/windmills/

Edit: After reading more on the above site, I find a number of pages on the site do not work.

How the hell does a windmill foundation affect well water?

lsayre wrote:Nothing nuts in any of that. Good common sense in fact!

The reason why energy costs must "necessarily skyrocket" (quoting the President) is so these totally unaffordable and unworkable alternatives can play on a more level field with the solutions that are economical and workable. That line of reasoning is what is nuts!!!

If we removed all the subsidies from the current sources of energy, I bet the playing field would be more workable.

The price of wind isn't subject to the vagaries of Middle East dictators!