Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:19 pm

I got the third coat on and fell over

This weekend I am sanding the back hall / servants entrance - about another hour on that then stain

I rebuilt the front door locks _ both doors - Friday night so I have a way in and out again - That was a hoot.

Last night I sanded the deck of the built in curved dining room hutch ( it was marred and had heat scorched spots )-- I was going to ask if I could use the same sealer on it as I had - but I used it on the window sills and it worked fine

first coat is on - but I sanded it to 180 and now its a bit light - don't know if the finer paper made the diff - but its oak so what do I know -- its a wood thing -- I hate wood

-- maybe a few more coats will darken it
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Poconoeagle On: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:20 pm

Sting wrote:I got the third coat on and fell over

This weekend I am sanding the back hall / servants entrance - about another hour on that then stain

I rebuilt the front door locks _ both doors - Friday night so I have a way in and out again - That was a hoot.

Last night I sanded the deck of the built in curved dining room hutch ( it was marred and had heat scorched spots )-- I was going to ask if I could use the same sealer on it as I had - but I used it on the window sills and it worked fine

first coat is on - but I sanded it to 180 and now its a bit light - don't know if the finer paper made the diff - but its oak so what do I know -- its a wood thing -- I hate wood

-- maybe a few more coats will darken it


are those servants the ones who like doughnuts with sprinkles??? :shock:
Poconoeagle
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Buckwalter & Co. , EFM520
Stove/Furnace Model: No. 28 Glenwood 1880, Alaska

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:30 pm

Sting wrote:first coat is on - but I sanded it to 180 and now its a bit light - don't know if the finer paper made the diff - but its oak so what do I know -- its a wood thing -- I hate wood

-- maybe a few more coats will darken it


Sting, That would make a huge difference! what did you use for earlier grits? 150? 120?...If you are using a 'wiping stain', chances are it is a Pigmented Stain...thats where the color comes from...finely ground pigments...
These pigments when spread in the wiping medium settle into the open pores of the wood...the larger the the pores remain, the more pigment, thus color remains...so 120 grit=larger pores for pigments=more of the color remaining....so 180 grit leaves smaller pores for pigment, and LESS color remaining....

OK..so you now have a seal coat applied to wood that you think may be too light...the pores are sealed...you CAN NOT just lop more staight stain on the seal coat and hope it will darken...it may dry darker, but when you come back with your next wet coat of finish (and now this would be seal coat #1 again!), you will re-wet the dried stain and wipe it off or leave a smeary mess...

The good news is that there is an easy solution....you need to make a glaze...(i'm making the assumption stain and finish are both water based)
So....take some of your finish and pour it into a sep. container....measure it precisely.....add to it up to 15% of the stain you are using....i.e 100 cc of finish, add 15 cc stain...now you have a glaze and it will 'stick' because the majority of the material u r putting down is the sealer, or top coat...this may be just the color u want...if too light, repeat the same for the next coat...each will give u a suble enhancing of the color...If it happens the this first glaze coat is too dark, since you already have a seal coat on, you can just get a fresh water wet rag and wipe it off (before it dries) and you will be back to the original look...but you will not have removed the first seal coat...then you could vary the glaze using a lesser % of stain to top coat...

Hope that helps! Welcome to my world!
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler


Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:42 pm

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Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:46 pm

lol.......CHEERS !!
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:57 pm

Hey I have a question 4 u when u sober up.....in my primary, secondary, paralell 2 boilel loop system, I am intending each boiler to have a supply side pump to the primary, a pump ON the primary, and another pump in the supply line from the primary to the supply side (zone valved) manifold...
My question is, should I have the pump on the primary running continuously 24/7/365? Is that necc? I was wondering if perhaps a HW L6006 C strap on a-stat might work so that the water in the primary only sloshes around when the water temp is at a min set point...

Looking for comments/opinions...and a cold beer!
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:57 am

Sober --- why would I try ?

Your idea about sloshing the water only when up to temp is good -- just slightly misguided - what you want is boiler protection - don't circulate thru the boiler when the water temp of THE BOILER is below 145. - there is no need to protect the primary - the secondary - or the load loops they should circulate anytime there is a call from the respective load - because...... you might circulate off a temperature reducing loop or a thermal limiting valve and only circulate --- ummmm as low as 90 degree water...


so whats the answer/

It depends...

I have "customers" that have systems where the primary loop pump is direct wired to the main power switch of the appliance. When the boiler room is activated in fall - that pump runs until spring when the boiler is shut off. Is that wrong? No Is that right? Let me get back to you on that.

I never wired a pump to run 24/7/365

but the who cares

lets think back a few posts to that bar napkin. Notice that energy from the "extended" supply manifold is supplied only when one of your new zone valves calls for it.. Take that idea one or two steps farther --- More bar napkins please nurse....

if you have a zone call you have a signal to bring the next device down the line to action so it can supply the necessary energy.. You can do this infinitely - just like hooking beads to the neck lass on your bong pipe.

So lets dialog a possibility: the zone stat calls - sends a signal to the zone valve - the zone valve opens, and profs a signal that - calls the pump of that supply manifold to bring energy to it - that pump (controlled by a DPST relay) generates a signal to start the primary loop pump circulating energy - That pump (controlled likewise) generates a signal to all boiler circulators that the primary loop wants energy and depending on the lead flow arrangement or back up algorithm - the energy is pumped out of the boiler - into the primary loop - taken by the supply manifold - delivered to the zone valve - and sent to the load radiation -- IF the boiler protection stat says the energy available - if the boiler is cold all pumps run but the boiler is isolated and protected until its hot enough. Dump zone protection is simply wired as another call for heat - should the boiler over temp - all zones are called to action scrubbing off the excess. The solid fuel boiler has no interaction with all the BS. It simply sits there on low fire (idling at 145 degrees) - or until it gets below the set point the outdoor reset commands then comes up to hi limit and cycles. the stand by ( Oil boiler maybe??? ) is on a separate house stat - IF/when the house drops below 50 say it fires and when hot it signals its pump to send energy to the already active primary loop - why -because the coal boiler is having issues and its that back up.

think about it

let it soak in

you just got about 4 books worth of information overload

no different than a wood glaze

Isn't world sharing fun


Now all that written and the bar about to close - before I stumble and hit my head on the curb -- I suggest you start a separate thread about multiple boiler control with a very detailed description and drawing of YOUR system EXACTLY as you envision it in life. There are better control experts here so limiting a thread to a single member - even as much as I like my member - does you no service.


Kind Regards
Sting
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:37 am

Sting wrote:Sober --- why would I try ?


...My apologies!..perish the thought!..lol ...or let me respond with the more appropriate Sting PC: "It Depends!"

Your idea about sloshing the water only when up to temp is good -- just slightly misguided - what you want is boiler protection - don't circulate thru the boiler when the water temp of THE BOILER is below 145. - Sting


Hello on this thread again Sting...
This issue about boiler protection or "shocking the boiler" with low return water temps or damaging it because of flue gasses condensing...I am trying to reconcile that concept with the useage of an outdoor re-set control, where you can set the hight limit at like 110 and the low at 90 or something...or even make the boiler a cold start....wouldn't using such a device at those temps be putting the boiler in the 'danger zone' so to speak?

I had been seriously considering adding an out door re-set control to my re-vamped system, but now the merits of doing so are in question until I learn more....

Perhaps the re-set control is a nice marketing niche by mfgs. for un-suspecting buyers who r not aware of possibly shortening the life of the boiler?

Do you have any insight into this?
Thanks,
DON
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:12 am

When I chat about boiler protection -- its not as simple as a single prophylactic on the stem

You should - would want to - must ...... prevent( but no limited to) these possible dramas

one -- boiler shock -- not as much of an issue, for a mild steel boiler vs as it is for a cast-iron section appliance but still -- boiler shock is when you have a hot vessel and you quickly send a hi volume of very cold water to it. The sharp transfer of energy is like that of an explosion. This is prevented by limiting pumping as below or with a bypass -[or with correct system balancing] - whats better? It depends -- Ill vote for system balancing!

two -- boiler condensing - accepted lowest operation temperatures should be 140-145 degrees to keep the corrosive gasses in the suspension of the products of combustion --- so as not to rot the boiler or the flue. Some will argue that a coal fire will not condense to a corrosive state so the appliance may be run below this standard - but some have lamented with pictures here that that wasn't the case for them when they tried -- so It Depends - This is prevented by limiting the energy transfer out of the appliance when below condensing temperature.

A correctly configured Out Door Reset (ODR) will have a minimum boiler temp adjustment -- this will not allow the boiler to idle fire below XXX ( that set point ) [sometimes I have mine set as hi as 160 == It depends] then there will be an adjustment for differential and at least the anticipation

read more here
http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/media/lit ... 6_d_06.pdf

Now -- as you refer to circulation temperatures - YES - often it is not necessary to send boiler energy at full output to one or any of the loads. Energy out to the loads can be controlled by manual or automatic temperature reducing pumping or mixing - even as simply as by choking a flow with a valve. Once you have the energy out to the load limited, it is not easily increased - unless you employ ORD technology -- either at the energy production source ( the boiler and this is the simplest / most cost effective ) or in variable circulation. A great deal of technology is not necessary for this - a very simple bypass on the supply and return manifolds only costing a couple of fittings and extra two valves can do everything necessary.

but the point is ( in you case) -----> you do it with at least a 140 degree solid fuel boiler -- and here we also have the root of the system balance sermons I used to give. But someone broke the pulpit.

Mod com - resistance - or condensing appliances --- all bets above are off and Ill have to get back to you about those.
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:27 pm

Sting..Thanks for taking the time to write that informative reply...much appreciated

BTW..all done w/that floor now? Hows it holding up so far?
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:32 pm

FLOORS ARE DONE

NEVER -- going to sand floors again - been washin up dust for the last two weeks :mad:

first scratch this week - might buff out -- might get a rug

It Depends :D

I did notice a significant "shine" difference in the room that only has two coats vs an adjoining one with three - but I am not going to deal with that. I have four on the rear entry - and rugs - its doing fine.
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:19 am

Sting...not a good sign, obviously, with getting a scratch already....is it a finish penetrating scratch (one that cuts thru the finish into the wood, exposing bare, unstained wood), or just a surface scratch? (one that you see only in the layers of the top coats)....you can send me a pic if you like...

I understand your frustration with the job, but I would highly recommend getting more top coat on there...most of the heavy bs is done, and a lttle more now will save u lots of frustration by next Winter (if you're still there) when u look at the whole thing and think: "oh..I should have"..which will intern result, no doubt, in an up-tick in alcohol expenditures!..and maybe you turning that "Avatar" gun on yourself, cuasing all of us higher medical premiums! :D

For suface scatches, I would use Abroalon Pads (2000 or 1000 grit)....here is a link to my parent co for them: https://shop.guardsman.com/guardsman/st ... PerPage=12

I have many 'gently used' ones...if u want to try a couple out, I'd be happy to send them to you..( for free of course). If you do decide to buy them, give me yell and I'll explain how best to use them for your situation...

Even Kinder Regards: Don
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: blrman07 On: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:22 am

Hardwood floor refinishing is on my list of things never to do again. Did it, didn't like it, hated it in fact, so I'll save my pennies dimes nickles and dollars and hire it out!!
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: installing a VC 2310 this summer
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:51 pm

Hey sting! ..reviving our old chat 9 months later..after the revamp...you still out there?..got a question right up your alley!...and btw..how dem floors holding out?
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:24 am

still looking very nice

Thanks for asking

Still dreaming of then sold to sold other fool! :D

no fool like an old fool - right?
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas