Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

Hi Sting..good to hear all is well and presumably your liver is still at least half functioning!

Thanks for following up with me..is there a way that I can respond to you? via your message?

OK..I'll pick and choose from all the stuff above to try to get at the problem with the least amount of typing..

I installed a new LL110 boiler (coal/oil), (110,000 btu net on coal), along side my wood boiler las Spring....I re-did all the plumbing at the boilers so that it has a primary/secondary set up (1" copper). The boilers can be run in series, parallel or individual..so I have a primary loop fed by 2 boilers...all per Mr. Holohan in his "Pumping Away" and "Primary Seconday Plumbing" made easy. (per the advise of Sting...very good educational read)

Each boiler loop has its own pump..the primary loop has its own circulator...and supplying my 4 zone supply manifold there is another circulator, which I refer to as the 'system pump'. All of the pumps are Taco 007's. Of the 4 heat circuits, which are 3/4" copper, 2 go to individual hydro-air coils, 1 in the attic, 1 in the basement. 1 is 4 ton, the other is 2.5 ton or 3 ton. 1 zone feeds an indirect 40 gal hw tank, and the 4th zone feeds the basement zone which is baseboard heat. I installed a new Taco SVC406 zone valve controller, my zone valves are HW on the supply side..some had issues..I either replaced the powered head or gutted the valve body and replaced the actual valve as needed.

All had been well since the install last Spring..I havent burned a drop of oil since. Used about 18 lbs/coal/day for HW...When the first real cold spell hit this year, I noticed that my delta T was way down..the boiler H/L was as high as 170/190...water would leave the primary loop at 175-180, and return at about 110...even if just one hydro-air zone was calling...even with the prim/sec set up, this was killing the boiler water temps, always knocking it down to the LL and really never recovering...my first thought was that the boiler was sized too small..I did several things and monitored a lot!..
I covered every spec of copper with 1" insulation, I choked back on the ball valve (@50 %) to the boiler to allow water to linger in it longer and give it a bit of extra time to recover...I tried the same thing with ball valves on the supply and return lines to/from the manifolds...I prioritized the hot water so that all 4 zones would never be calling...
Even with the boiler temp. getting the *censored* kicked out of it, the hot water zone and the 2 hydro air zones were satisfied..the basement never was...and the odd thing was that my coal usage was not excessive! I averaged out to needing about 40k/hr in Jan.

I did one more thing that helped out the most in terms of helping to keep the boiler temps from going into free fall:
When I did the re-vamp, I plumbed in, on the primary loop, a HW L6006a high/low aquastat ..why? at the time just because I had it, and thought it might be of use..well it was.

Basically I use that to be a stop gap method...I have it wired so that IT controls the system pump..I have it set about 15* higher than the boiler set points, with a 5* dif.
Sooo..now, when there is a call for heat, as long as the boiler is at temp., its pump will push water into the loop..BUT, the control on the loop will not energize the system pump untill it is happy..that gives the coal a bit more time to build up a head of steam, if u will...on the flip side, when the too-cold water returns to the primary, the same control will turn off the system pump sooner than the boilers' pump..so it makes the sytem pump turn on after the boilers', and shut off before...I guess this in effect made the primary loop 'the boiler' per say..It really helped in keeping the the boiler temps from going into free fall.

ok..phew, u with me? ..thought I had it solved!..well..I did solve the boiler temp issue...BUT...the basement zone would still not make temp., even on a mild day with all other zones shut down. I was having water leave the primary loop at 180 and see the return water temp, measured after the return manifold, but before the primary loop, was/is 85-90!
Now the odd thing I noticed was that the boiler water temp in this scenario repeatededly climbed all the way to its HH of 190, and would kick off...with 85* water comming back into the primary, AND the primary loop temp retained a consistent 175* or so....hmmm...return pipe temp for the zone was barely warm to the touch...I thought air!..I power purged the troubled zone...It helped a little, but didn't fix it..so it occurred to me that this is NOT a boiler issue after all, this is a flow issue...the water flow must be returning at barely a bit more than a trickle into the primary loop for it to have such little effect on temp...

The odd thing is, before I did the prime/sec loop, this same system pump supplied the same zone and satisfied it with a 100k oil boiler...
Why? My assumption is, that with the new set up, and the supply lines now getting fed by a 'tee' and a pump on the primary loop, probably 50% or less head is now available to the system pump/heat zones...and for this one troubled zone, it probably was just enough to push it past the tipping point.

So I am begining to conclude that I need a substantially larger system pump. I just measured all the footage of copper pipe, and counted up all the 90's and 45's on that zone, and measured the elements. I was astounded.. ( I did not install this zone!.. )
I came up with the following: Total length of 3/4 inch copper pipe: 284 ft, of which sits (first in line) 11 ft of HO element, and then another 34 ft of regular element..the return pipes loop back over the elements..
Number of 90's: 40
Number of 45's: 13

So if I treat every 90 as 2 ft pipe resistance, and every 45 as 1 ft, and add it to the actaul measured length of pipe I get 377 ft of pipe resistance!...being driven by a 1/25th hp Taco 007...

So this has been a snap shot of what was, what I have done, what is and what I conclude...

From here, I am looking first, for 1.an opinion of what I have concluded 2. with the given set up as described, and the mix of heating loads, what should I target for a delta T ( even with the other zones satisfied, the delta T of 70* or so has got to be too much) 3. If I am on the right track here, what should I aim for pertaining to a new Taco system pump? (Taco IS in RI btw!..like to support the local biz)..for instance Taco 0011? what should I need for head/gpm..etc. NOTE: I have been in contact with Yanche too, and plugged my #'s into his Yanches tool box, but I can not plot my resulting equation on a graph to find an intersection of needed gpm... 4. How will greater flow affect my 2 fan coil unit operation? I am thinking that with a bigger pump, the water will be zipping thru them faster, less heat will be extracted per minute, resulting in a lower detla T ( Is that correct?)..If so, doesn't that mean that, sure, the boilers job will be made easier, BUT wont the fan coil units have to run longer to extract the right amout of btu's?...while using $.15/kwh electricity?... ..kind of sounds like 'choose your poison'...quite a balancing act...

Well..there you have it..sorry this is so lenghty, but I figured I'd put it all out there at once rather than playing pink pong back and forth with questions and answers!
Any help, opinions, info, feed back is greatly appreciated!
Thanks

stoker_RI wrote:OK..I'll pick and choose from all the stuff above to try to get at the problem with the least amount of typing..


So this has been a snap shot of what was, what I have done, what is and what I conclude...

From here, I am looking first, for 1.an opinion of what I have concluded

WEll there is a reason I have my PM blocked - maybe I should get over it - maybe not - so it goes

Just keep in mind - what you read by a figment of the public internet is absolutely worthless

BTW your conclusions appear sound and well founded -- Good Job

stoker_RI wrote: 2. with the given set up as described, and the mix of heating loads, what should I target for a delta T ( even with the other zones satisfied, the delta T of 70* or so has got to be too much)

I try for 10% + or - 2 your goal of 30% is too wide I.M.O

stoker_RI wrote: 3. If I am on the right track here, what should I aim for pertaining to a new Taco system pump? (Taco IS in RI btw!..like to support the local biz)..for instance Taco 0011? what should I need for head/gpm..etc. NOTE: I have been in contact with Yanche too, and plugged my #'s into his Yanches tool box, but I can not plot my resulting equation on a graph to find an intersection of needed gpm...

That tool box thingy is great -- and if it doesn't work for you-- Ill bet he can plug your figures and get it but don't tell him my positive testimonial to it.
Did your try the Heat loss calculation software ? With all the pipe calculations you have - that data should plot a flow at XXx temp to satisfy the XX load heated by XX BTU's radiation (cast or fin or infloor) - now what will it take to flow that??? That's the pump to hang!

stoker_RI wrote: 4. How will greater flow affect my 2 fan coil unit operation?

This is why you put balance valves (on the supply side of the pump) in these load loops -- so yes until you adjust -- then NO

stoker_RI wrote:I am thinking that with a bigger pump, the water will be zipping thru them faster, less heat will be extracted per minute, resulting in a lower delta T ( Is that correct?)..If so, doesn't that mean that, sure, the boilers job will be made easier,

SEE ABOVE -- remember -- System Balance

stoker_RI wrote: BUT wont the fan coil units have to run longer to extract the right amout of btu's?...while using $.15/kwh electricity?... ..kind of sounds like 'choose your poison'...quite a balancing act...

no see above -- hint - System Balance

stoker_RI wrote:Well..there you have it..sorry this is so lenghty, but I figured I'd put it all out there at once rather than playing pink pong back and forth with questions and answers!
Any help, opinions, info, feed back is greatly appreciated!
Thanks

Great stuff
You got this
just trust what you have read and learned -- apply it like you are

Hi Sting..thanks for the reply...and support..

Sting wrote:WEll there is a reason I have my PM blocked - maybe I should get over it - maybe not - so it goes

Well..I gather will the # of posts you have on here, your mail box would prolly be chuck full of a lot of white noise...and given your affinity for not pulling any punches, I can imagine the white noise could sometimes turn a bit dark!

stoker_RI wrote: 2. with the given set up as described, and the mix of heating loads, what should I target for a delta T ( even with the other zones satisfied, the delta T of 70* or so has got to be too much)

Sting wrote:I try for 10% + or - 2 your goal of 30% is too wide I.M.O

--hmm..30 % is not my goal..did I somehow lead you to gather that ?

Sting wrote:Did your try the Heat loss calculation software ? With all the pipe calculations you have - that data should plot a flow at XXx temp to satisfy the XX load heated by XX BTU's radiation (cast or fin or infloor) - now what will it take to flow that??? That's the pump to hang!

- I have not yet due to the magnitude of available choices out there..Going thru the exercise of picking one makes me want to hit the suds!..Is there one you like?

Also..The task is daunting for my house...I have 46 windows, 3 6 ft sliders, casements, double hungs, half rounds, quarter rounds, 4 doors...even thou I personally framed, wired, plumbed, finished and lanscaped this house, the measurement thingy is a mental block for me..but I guess in need to get by that..Actually, 16 years ago, the only thing I didn't have a hand in was the boiler install!..well I guess I can't say that anymore! ..Co-incidentally, the year it took me to create this beast was the same year my first born came into the world!..
... Funny, Life truely has never been the same since that tumultuous year!..

Side note that you may find interesting: My inital heating system was a residential co-generation unit...20 hp diesel engine coupled with a 5K generator that back fed to the grid...thats when I could buy oil for $.56/gal tho..this thing scrubbed every bit of btu's out of itself down to the exhaust such that the exhaust pipe was code approved 4" PVC pipe!

Question on heat loss calculation:
With regard to my current problem zone and pump size dertermination, should I not be factoring the other load zones in as well to properly size the pump?

Sting wrote:

stoker_RI wrote: 4. How will greater flow affect my 2 fan coil unit operation?

This is why you put balance valves (on the supply side of the pump) in these load loops -- so yes until you adjust -- then NO

Question on balance valves :
sould these be placed on each zone or just the 2 fan coil zones? ...and the technique for actually doing the balancing act I would need to get up to speed on..do you have any links (and/or guidance) in your bag of tricks that I can feed my head with?

My..those pump prices seem to rise exponentially once you go beyond a Taco 007 or 008 size! Those balancing valves arn't quite give aways either, are they? I may go broke saving money!

Thanks again for your attention and your assistance!..Look forward to hearing back from you..
Don

Any further words of wisdom, Sting??.... GO PATS!!

1. Have all your price quotes end with the numbers 666.

2. When the woman of the house comes downstairs to see how you’re doing, smile sweetly and say, "That's a lovely dress you're wearing, Mrs. Cleaver."

3. Replace a steam boiler, but don't flush out the old wet returns.

4. Never perform a heat loss calculation. Heat loss calculations are only for people who have had no real world experience. It's always better to guess.

5. Get either of these vanity license plates: ICHEATU or ROBUBLND

6. Base the size of the new boiler on what's already there. You don't know who sized that boiler but, hey, he was probably right. Right?

7. When doing your estimate, punch big holes in the sheetrock wall with a rubber mallet. When asked what you're doing, tell your customer you're checking the "R" value of the insulation.

8. Cut a hole in his roof to check the attic insulation.

9. Plan on starting the job at 4 AM, but don't tell the customer you'll be doing this.

10. When unsure, size the replacement boiler by the Looksalotlike Method. Just turn to your partner and say, "This house looks a lot like that house we worked in last year, doesn't it?" When he nods, use the same boiler.

11. When bleeding a radiator, let that black, nasty water squirt where it will, especially if the folks have beige rugs.

12. If you have more than three air blockages in the same radiator, install a small plastic tube in place of the radiator air vent. Drill a hole through the side of the house and push the loose end of the small plastic tube through the hole. Leave it like that.

13. If the home owner asks what makes the system water black, tell him the blackness is caused by six known carcinogens.

14. Stand in front of the old water heater and ask the customer if he knows how many cylinders it has.

15. Remember that there is no problem that can't be overcome with brute force and ignorance.

16. Make your primary tool the hammer. Then treat every problem as though it were a nail.

17. When you put something back together, make sure you wind up with at least five extra parts.

18. Always throw away extra parts.

19. When in doubt about a circulator's size, use the "Next Size Method" of selection.

20. If you have a choice between a "regular" circulator and a high-velocity, always go for the high-velocity. The higher the better.

Sting wrote: Just keep in mind - what you read by a figment of the public internet is absolutely worthless

..

..lol!..So True!...

..I will, however, at least implement 4-6 of those suggestions! Just for the sake of science!

Well..On this super bowl Sunday, the suds must be a-flowin!...

With Gilette Stadium being merely 20 miles from here, and myself planted squarely in Patriots Nation, I may be able to verbalize my thoughts nearly as well as you just did in about 6 or 7 hours!

"IT DEPENDS"..

Kind Regards,

DON

stoker_RI wrote:Hi Sting..thanks for the reply...and support..

- I have not yet due to the magnitude of available choices out there..Going thru the exercise of picking one makes me want to hit the suds!..Is there one you like?

Support - yeah I have been called a jock strap too! my choice??? The one I like is The one done by someone else - I think the one on the Slatfin site (when its working) is good - the search tool of this site will show others

stoker_RI wrote:Question on heat loss calculation:
With regard to my current problem zone and pump size dertermination, should I not be factoring the other load zones in as well to properly size the pump?

this is all taken into account when the calculation is done correctly

stoker_RI wrote:Question on balance valves :
sould these be placed on each zone or just the 2 fan coil zones? ...and the technique for actually doing the balancing act I would need to get up to speed on..do you have any links (and/or guidance) in your bag of tricks that I can feed my head with?

yes -
balancing a system is not like stopping for a stop sign - you have to twist a valve and let the system settle down - then measure the result as all the loops will be effected slightly - then twist it again and see what happens - and again and again - and then experiment on the next loop and see how it effects the first one you thought you had done because every change ---- changes everything -- and every system is different.

stoker_RI wrote:My..those pump prices seem to rise exponentially once you go beyond a Taco 007 or 008 size! Those balancing valves arn't quite give aways either, are they? I may go broke saving money!
Thanks again for your attention and your assistance!..Look forward to hearing back from you..
Don

A globe valve - do a google search - it it best valve to balance with by its design -=- but anything that will choke the flow will work - even a cheep butterball valve will change a flow rate

as for other words of wisdom - the above is garbage -- see below for real world advice

21. Sell the customer an indirect domestic hot water heater and tell him he doesn't have to pay you for the burner.

22. Always leave old parts with the customer. After all, this is what folks expect from their auto mechanics, isn't it? And remember, "old parts" includes the old boiler, water heater and that valuable asbestos insulation.

23. On atmospheric gas boilers, always install the draft hood within two inches of the top of the boiler.

24. Explain that the boiler you're quoting on uses only square Btus. This is very good because, unlike the round Btus that were used in the old days of round boilers, square Btus are much easier to stack. That means you can get more of them in the boiler. And naturally, that leads to greater efficiency.

25. When asked if you've had any commercial or industrial or institutional experience, smile proudly and tell your customer that the warden always assigned you to bleed all the radiators in your cell block.

26. Remember, all copper tubing, brass fittings and copper tanks should always be removed from the job site. Charge an appropriate amount for this recycling service.

27. Size your pump head to the height of the building instead of the friction loss through the longest circuit. For instance, if you're working in a three-story building, use a pump with at least a 30 foot head.

28. Talk about lifetime warranties to customers who are in their eighties.

29. If you can, increase every radiator by at least two sizes.

30. Try to use the same circulator on every job, both residential and commercial. This makes it so much easier to stock the parts. Pick a real big circulator, though.

31. Go to court and legally change your name to Norman Bates. Then specialize in hotel and motel work.

32. If you should by some crazy chance oversize a circulator, make sure you throttle it with a gate valve.

33. Always install at least ten 3/4" zones off one 3/4" manifold. Don't worry about the flow rate, the water will figure out what to do on its own.

34. Strip threads whenever possible.

35. Remove the handles from all valves and take them with you. Bend the stems if you can.

36. Take the muffler off your truck.

37. Install thermostatic radiator valves on loop systems. Don't use any bypasses within the radiator enclosure.

38. Get a facial tattoo.

39. Pierce your eyebrow.

40. Replace an old steam boiler, but leave the old, one-pipe-steam air vents as is. They're probably still okay. After all, they're only 60 years old.

41. Wait until they put the baby to sleep before you start cutting and threading pipe. The same reasoning, of course, applies to the use of the SawsAll.

42. Raise the water temperature to 200 degrees when you can't get a down-fed convector supplied by diverter tees hot. When that doesn't work, raise the water temperature to 220 degrees.

Sting, you crack me up!!!



Hope you are well..

Greg L

stoker_RI wrote: wrote:Those balancing valves arn't quite give aways either, are they?

I may go broke saving money!
Thanks again for your attention and your assistance!..Look forward to hearing back from you..
Don
A globe valve - do a google search - it it best valve to balance with by its design -=- but anything that will choke the flow will work - even a cheep butterball valve will change a flow rate

Hey Sting..thanks for the reply!..I feel privelaged that it was my post that you chose to air out your 'synapses' and let the creative juices fly!...Is this cabin fever in "the Lower Fox Valley"? ..(some day I'll google that...)

Perhaps you missed a spot of flooring to re-finish...or maybe you could pick it up as a side line? After all, with this booming economy and the great 'job creater' at the helm, I'm sure you could have a flooring re-finishing business booming in no time!..And then, just think!.. With a new discipline under your belt, its self serving! It opens up a whole new subject matter to expound your thoughts on!..lol

stoker_RI wrote:Those balancing valves arn't quite give aways either, are they?

sting wrote:A globe valve - do a google search - it it best valve to balance with by its design -=- but anything that will choke the flow will work - even a cheep butterball valve will change a flow rate

anyway..pertaining to the above. My suppy lines are configured as follows, heading from the boilers up stream to the living space: Zone vavle followed by a ball valve. If I were to add globe valves, they would be after the ball valve..but..would that be redundant with having a ball valve there just prior to it? Can I rely on the ball valves that are in place to achieve the same result?

Thanks!

You can keep your wood work hobbies --not for me, and that fact was under-girded by the floors

No need to add a valve for the sake of adding a valve or possible Zombie Apocalypse. I use my zone valve isolation to choke the flow on a few of the zones in my little place.

You can too -- you have my permission

Just keep in mind -- only choke the flow on the supply side of the pump -- in the flow away and to the load -- and only if the Delta T is too narrow - slowing the flow widens the temp differential of supply and return -- USUALLY -

and Usually changes the flow of everything else in the system, so you adjust -- you wait -- and you adjust again or you adjust what went out of balance from the first move -- and begin again

43. Ignore the arrows on heating equipment. You can force the water to go the way you want it to go if you use a big enough pump.

44. Before you install a check valve, ask your customer which way is vertical and which way is horizontal.

45. Install automatic air vents in places where people never go. Do the same with oil-lubricated circulators.

46. Base the size of the replacement boiler on the size of the nozzle in the oil burner.

47. If it's a gas-fired boiler, base the size of the replacement on what you clocked off the gas meter.

48. If you're using an air-scoop, install it right up against an elbow. It won't work, but it will look mighty fine!

49. Use gauge glasses on steel compression tanks and leave the gauge valves open all the time.

50. If the manufacturer tells you to use SAE-20, non-detergent oil, use STP or used motor oil instead. When these lubricants are not available, use olive oil, which you'll find in the kitchen cabinet.

51. Screw down the caps on all automatic air vents. Seal them with Lock-Tite.

52. Reduce the outlet on all steam boilers by a minimum of two sizes.

53. Never use a steam header. Pipe directly from the boiler to the main.

54. Install all your circulators on the return side of the boiler, pumping right at the compression tank.

55. Blow off the low-water cutoff only when cement forms in the gauge glass.

56. Wear an I Love Satan baseball cap.

57. Don't use valves or unions around the automatic water feeder on a steam boiler.

58. Feed every automatic water feeder on every steam boiler with hot water. The hotter the better.

59. Never skim a steam boiler.

60. To clean a steam boiler, build up about 10 psi and pop the relief valve. That'll do it!

61. Let the dog out of the house.

62. Step on the prize rose bush. Spill oil on it if you can.

63. Use motorized zone valves on a gravity-return steam system.

64. Use motorized zone valves on a pumped-return steam system, but make sure you don't put a vacuum breaker on the boiler.

65. Use lots of teflon tape and make sure you put it right down to the end of the fitting so pieces of it can break off and float through the system.

Hahahaha.....you're on your own personal roll! Ok..guess u don't need a side job for verbal amo ..plenty left in the well from your current ..um..position?....David Letterman may find a slot for u tho...

Anyway...went to do the heat loss from the 'Pro' sites..they either crashed and burned or where useless with out buying...one lets you use it for 15 min before it shuts itself off..so I used the one here that Steamup put on...

Came up with 86000 heat loss on a design day of 0*...and 22btu/sq ft...my combined net output available is around 190mbtu..so plenty there..

The problem zone requires about 22mbtu of that...using Yanches intersecting curves to find flow rate, I see that my Taco007's curve intersects my heat loss equation at 2.5 gpm. In order to get a gpm that will handle the 86mbtu I have to go all the way up to a Taco 0012 and that just hits the mark and also using a delta T of 30*.

Do u think I am approaching this correcltly? Does it make sense to buy a pump that just hits the mark?

Is there another approach that makes more sense?



Oooh Swami! Enlighten me with thy words of wisdom!

RULE 27

Sting wrote:RULE 27

Sting wrote:Just keep in mind - what you read by a figment of the public internet is absolutely worthless

lol..come on Swami!..U be toyin' wid me? Am I to believe that you sprinkled some worthwhile bits in with your gobbledegook??

-Anyway...as I think out loud to myself in my head...we rarely get down to the design* day temp...not like The Lower Fox Valley where the bottom can drop out of the temps! (..Man! That Upper Fox Valley must be brutal, barren, tundra laiden, huh?)...we have that big vat of brine about 40 miles away acting as a big mixing valve in the atmosphere...prolly 95% of the time the pump would suffice with out a hitch, and I could use your ball squeezing trick, ball valve that is..to balance the load and make all the other zones nice nice with much tighter delta T's...
If swapping out the pump works, it sure would be a lot cheaper and less time consuming than other alternatives that have as much chance of getting done as you choosing to re-finish your flooring again just for fun in the heat of July!

btw..I like reule #'s 31 and 38