Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:57 pm

Well..First Sting: Got your PM.... Not entirely sure how to test the theory..but I'll tell you what I have done so far, and the results are interesting.

First off, I think its best to test 1 scenario at a time and monitor the results, so:

1. I took the wood boiler out of the equation by closing ball valves on its supply/return lines.

2. Concerning the 'tee' set up to the boilers: I have a gate valve in the middle of each that serves the boilers...So, for the now sole operating coal boiler, I closed off that vavle, effectively eliminating the prim/sec loop theory in part. (there still is a tee on the primary that leads to the supply/return manifolds that has no gate valve. So currently all my return water is being forced to enter the boiler.

RESULTS:
-The basement zone seems to be working better..more as expected. My boiler temp, loop temp, and temp prior to the supply manifold are all within 5 degrees...

-when 2 zones call, I'm pushing out 65-170 deg water, returning at 130 (while the boiler keeps up)

- when just the basement calls, the return is about 126!...much better...and the boiler maintains, and even increases.

-As expected, without the tee operational, 2 zones calling at once knocks the hell out of the boiler temp., causing it to fall to LL and turning off the pumps..and its 45 deg out..thats the bad news...
(NOTE: I have my primary loop pump wired to come on when there is a call for heat, so even if the boiler pump gets turned off because of hitting the LL, the primary pump is still active and now pushing water thru the boiler since the gate valve is closed, but no water is getting pushed to the zones..)

-Now the zone with the coil can put out 48mbtu and can take 2-4 gpm with a 3/4" line...the basement zone puts out 31mbtu..so with the new, big pump, I'm assuming the coil is getting the full 4gpm and the basement about 3.5...
So for arguments sake, lets say that with THOSE 2 zones calling, I've got about 79mbtu getting extracted from the water

-The coal boiler has a gross of 110mbtu..and even if I am conservative at 80% efficiency, the net should be 88k..and the boiler water temp drops!...I understand that that makes sense being coal IF there had noy been a prior full burn, but once full fire has been achieved, I wouldn't expect the water temp to rise, fall repeat...AND its 45 deg out!..hmmmm

-I have upgraded all the pipes to 1" insulation, r7.6

- Heat loss on the house as a whole came out to be about 117,000

- Hydro air coils come on at 150*..basement radiators (I guess) prefer 180*

- I'm wondering if a Primary/secondary set up is not a good 'fit' for my configuration to begin with..

Thoughts?
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:04 pm

...I have a feeling that 1 thing you r going to tell me is to choke the flow to the coils to balance the system.... :)
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:00 pm

stoker_RI wrote:
- I'm wondering if a Primary/secondary set up is not a good 'fit' for my configuration to begin with..

Thoughts?



you appear to be testing correctly and your conclusion above is a possible reality

It Depends it may just need a minor change in control and flow

Keep at it with what you have before you spend more cash
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas


Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:06 pm

Yeah...def a milestone day tho...good to see some of the brain power I burnt up over time concerning this never ending saga translate into some results!...at 1:30 I got 'cocky' and pushed up the t-stat to 73 just for s**ts and gigles..well as of 3 pm I hit 70 anyway!..haven't seen that down there since August!..and the 1st floor zone hasn't had to 'call' becuause of my 'radiant' heat rising from below!... :lol:
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:15 pm

rhkramer wrote:Ok, this is rather late, and you may have solved the problem by now, and somebody else may have made a similar suggestion by now, but I'd think about an approach something like the following, (I didn't try to read all 74 posts in this thread):.


-I don't blame you! I would not have either! :|

TY for the input..but since this post has started, it has 'morphed' .... I have since had issues just getting the zone to heat 'as is'..so any changes to it have been 'tabled' until I get that under control..
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:48 am

Question about temp/pressure guage on primary loop..

When I installed the primary loop, I thought it would be a good idea to have a sensor in it that would allow me to know the water temp...as it turned out, I had a spare temp/pressure guage..so I used that..(I really was just using it for temp monitoring, not PSI)...I inserted it in a well, I believe, just as you would in a boiler..and on a 45 degree angle. I do know that it measures temp. correctly.

Now questions have come up about flow restrictions in the primary loop, which has a Taco 007 pump on it.

My questions are:
1. Would it be expected this type of guage as installed in a 1" copper pipe would accurately measure PSI?

2. If so, is there any way to determine what the PSI reading in the pipe for this pump would/should be?

3. The PSI reading I am getting is 5psi..if this is a valid reading, what, if anything, can I conclude from this pertaining to flow restriction?
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Rob R. On: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:00 pm

I have no idea if your gauge is accurate or if the position matters, but 5 psi doesn't sound right...my foggy brain thinks a Taco 007 can create no more than a 4 psi pressure differential.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: Rice/buck
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:06 pm

Rob R. wrote:I have no idea if your gauge is accurate or if the position matters, but 5 psi doesn't sound right...my foggy brain thinks a Taco 007 can create no more than a 4 psi pressure differential.


TY for the input, Rob..the reading may acually be more like 4.5 or so....those lines are pretty close together on that guage! :roll:
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Rob R. On: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:16 pm

Let me guess, you are using a 100 psi gauge... :roll:
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: Rice/buck
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:56 pm

Its actually 75psi..like Iike I said..I had it...and was really using it for temp, so I used it!...If it wasn't 'there', I do not think I would have gone out and bought anything!.. :)

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stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:11 pm

Pull the mains - and stop all liquid movement for a moment

compare all pressure gauges and note each one what it reads

This becomes your new "zero" on each

also note
this one was 2 psi higher
or that one is 10 psi lower

one may be correct -- or the average may be correct

with out a know good benchmark -- Who knows

WHO CARES ????

all you want to see is the difference from at rest to in active mode and compare that difference ONLY when pumping

OH EXCUSE ME!!! when "Circulating" energy


A S S Chew allyy --- LOL if all gauges are in place at or close to the point of no pressure change - they all should react exponentially or exactly the same in this test

The atmospheres registered will also vary with altitude change -- so watch all the variablesesssss
but in practice -- having a new "zero" on each compensates for all variables save if a gauge is just junk and moves 10 psi on the face for every one psi of real change

so -- "It Depends"
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:36 pm

Lol...funny Sting...I guess I was ultimately trying to determine is whether or not flow restriction can be interpolated via a pressure guage ...
If u look at that second pic, u will notice 2 pumps..the outer one is on the primary flowing downward it is 'pumping away'....um ...circulating away...from the point of no pressure change...the inner pump is the new beast supplying the zones...its rated at 30-33 head...er..above shoulder...lol..and the guage up stream from it reads about 31...

Hmmmm...I thought pumps on individual circuits do not contribute psi to each other?
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:46 pm

it depends
yes- if the hydraulic isolation is correctly configured and installed

don't get hung up on this-- it only takes 3 psi at the hi point of the system to keep everything underneath circulating correctly

So if the black stinky water will spray a significant stain away from the tap and onto the customers white wall to wall carpet from the highest point in the system -- well you have at least "enough" system pressure there and below

this is the only point of pressure measure I ever concern myself with - everything else flows -if the pumps are pumping [ :P as others insist -circulating] away from low system point of no pressure change

82. Size all piping by the "Hole Method." Just fill the hole in the radiator with a pipe, and then run the line back to the boiler, picking up other radiators along the way but always maintaining the original hole's size.

83. Run as much baseboard as you want on a single loop. When it doesn't heat, install a 100 HP pump. That'll do 'er!

84. Install a new boiler, get paid, and then tell the home owner the American Nazi Party owns the company that made the boiler.

85. Never balance a hydronic heating system. If you oversize everything enough, balancing becomes unnecessary.

86. Whenever possible, install gauges and thermometers upside-down and backwards.

87. Show up on the job wearing a pink hat from the North American Man-Boy Love Association. Smile a silly grin.

88. If your customer has a white dog, let it play in the soot.

89. If you're left alone in the house with their cat, clamp your channel locks on the little bugger's tail and marvel as it bounces off the walls like a fuzzy basketball.

90. Put what's in the cat's litter box into the combustion chamber and let 'er rip!

91. Use Soot Sticks.

92. Tell your customer you can't start his job on Monday because that's the day you're having your anal warts removed.

93. Don't use isolation valves. Isolation valves cost money.

94. Carry a dead rat with you. Walk upstairs with it while the folks are eating lunch and ask, "Did you know you had these down there?"

95. When the customer calls for a price, stick him into your Voice Mail system for a half-hour or so.

96. While you have your customer in Voice Mail, let him listen to a directory listing every person in the company except the one he wants to speak to.

97. Hire a salesman named Taddeus Lyziquizokoquiski and force your customers to punch Tad's name into your Voice Mail system. Then, cut them off because they forgot to hit the # key after successfully typing Lyziquizokoquiski.

98. If you have a showroom, hang lots of signs that say, IF YOU BREAK IT, YOU BOUGHT IT! and WE PROSECUTE SHOPLIFTERS!!! THIS MEANS YOU!!!!

99.If the steam system bangs, tell your customer it's supposed to bang. After all, it's steam, right?

100. Turn a diverter tee system into a loop system by removing the diverter tees and connecting all the radiators together.
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Yanche On: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:40 pm

Rob R. wrote:I have no idea if your gauge is accurate or if the position matters, but 5 psi doesn't sound right...my foggy brain thinks a Taco 007 can create no more than a 4 psi pressure differential.

Your foggy brain is correct. I took the published Taco 007 pump curves and changed ft of head to psig for 180 deg water. The result is shown below.

Taco_007_IFC_wPSI.jpg
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Why did I do this? If you measure differential pressure across the circulator you know the operating point on the curve. Then you also know flow. Measure boiler supply and return temperatures and you can calculate BTU delivered. Standby for a "Yanche's Toolbox" topic on this. Now back to rule 101. :-)
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:30 pm

Lol Sting..congrats!...you hit 100!...I particularly like #97.....

So the other day I told you that I had better results when I isolated the coal boiler by closing the gate valve I have between the supply/return tee...

BUT WHY?....well I think I got it..let me run this thru you and past you...
With the gate valve open, the primary loop has just the power of the Taco 007 circulating water...(we had wondered about flow in that loop)...BUT, by closing that gate vale, I essentially am making that boiler a PART of the loop! And therefore when the boiler pump AND primary pump are running, NOW the 2 pumps output IS added together...creating more flow/head in the loop!
Which concludes me to thinking there is a margin in the loop for improvement..
The next dilemma is what is causing it to be needed?....hmmmm
What think you about the conclusion?
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler