Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:37 pm

You have harvested the essence of my PM to you this week :D

Regardless of what other folks ponder because I call a system pump - a pump not a circulator

Ill bet my next statement will also incur furthur condescending remarks -- and I don't care :lol:

Think of your primary loop as an extension of the boiler vessel stored energy......... get your head around that? A primary loop is simply a source of energy -- energy created by events happening in the boiler. Events like burning coal to release stored energy but moving about 80% f that stored energy into liquid contained by the boiler - so said energy can move out into the system and be left in the load.

so--- if your primary loop isn't fully charged up - it will not feed the zones as you may have anticipated

The only need for a (true) primary loop is if you have multiple --- (or redundant) fail-over to boilers - if your just heating with coal and you have manually valved off any other appliance -- Why are you struggling with a primary loop? There is nothing wrong with a boiler loop or what others might even call and active or "pumped' supply and return manifold

-- and that sounds like what your have valved your single boiler into by taking the other appliance out of the loop!

If that works
Image
Last edited by Sting on Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:44 pm

more ????

once I get past 100 I may have to remove my shoes to keep counting
or apply liberal amounts of Image


101. Install gate and check valves, but remove the gates and flappers first.

102. Clean the boiler with a tree sprayer. Just pop the flue pipe and spray all that crap down into the combustion chamber. Make sure you leave it there.

103. Install a fresh flounder between the boiler and the boiler jacket. Do this only if you're reasonably sure you're not going to be paid.

104. If you're really sure you're not going to get paid, install a piece of plate glass on top of the chimney. This is for the enjoyment of those who will follow you.

105. Pop every relief valve you come across.

106. Never clean the water side of a boiler after you've installed it.

107. If a relief valve drips, plug it.

108. If the chemical manufacturer tells you to use one can of the stuff, use five.

109. Install a dehumidifier in the duct work of a scorched air system.

110. Seal leaking steam boilers with oatmeal.

111. If you're installing a new relief valve, pipe it to the outdoors where it can discharge, freeze and then blow up the building.

112. Feel free to drop safety relief valves on the concrete floor. They're tough; they can take it.

113. Put a few nickels in the copper tubing before you solder it all together. Make bets with your partner as to where they'll wind up.

114. Install a backflow preventer on every domestic hot water system, but leave out the thermal expansion tank.

115. Make sure the people you hire to answer your phone think they're doing your customers a favor by picking up within the first 25 rings.

116. The people who answer your phone should always ask the customer, "What is this in reference to?" in the most accusing manner possible.

117. If your customers don't know the correct names for the things that are either banging or smoking or leaking in their homes, the people who answer your phone should make them feel like idiots.

118. The people who answer your phone should always say, "Well, how are we supposed to help you if you don't know the proper names of the equipment. Hmmmm?"

119. Never tell your customers about water heater anode rods in water heaters. It's so much better to sell them a new water heater every four years. Screw the environment, we can always get another one.

120. Write, "Joe, whatever you do, don't install it this way!" on the installation instructions, and then leave them where the customer can find them after you're gone.
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:24 pm

Sting wrote:Think of your primary loop as an extension of the boiler vessel stored energy......... get your head around that? A primary loop is simply a source of energy -- energy created by events happening in the boiler. Events like burning coal to release stored energy but moving about 80% f that stored energy into liquid contained by the boiler - so said energy can move out into the system and be left in the load.


-Yes..head fully wrapped..I do get that..

Sting wrote:The only need for a (true) primary loop is if you have multiple --- (or redundant) fail-over to boilers - if your just heating with coal and you have manually valved off any other appliance -- Why are you struggling with a primary loop? There is nothing wrong with a boiler loop or what others might even call and active or "pumped' supply and return manifold

-- and that sounds like what your have valved your single boiler into by taking the other appliance out of the loop!


-Well..you need to know where I was comming from..my own personal past..for 11 years, I had the same wood boiler along side a small oil boiler, and a coal stoker stove inside...the wood boiler was plumed thru the oil boilers' return with the intent that as long as the wood boiler water was hotter than that of the low on the old HW8124? control, the boiler would not fire..great!...trying not to spend 5k a year on oil!..so I burnt many cords of wood..and coal indoors..

Now with the purchase of the new coal/oil boiler, with the new control, the scenario changed...
First, I was trying to actually heat the home from 1 or 2 boilers in the garage, mostly by coal...the boiler was a little undersized, but I didn't mind the thought of burning a couple of cords of wood a season..(dare I say, this pyromaniac might even miss it!)

but..keeping in mind that it was now my intent to rely on the WB much less, the idea of the prime/sec and closely spaced tees appealed to me..

Realizing the concept of the primary loop being 'the boiler' that is supplied with hot water, it was my intent that I could run the WB sparingly, and let the fire go out and have the coal boiler pick up the load...

With the control on the coal boiler (hw L7224), had I plumbed the system as was done prior, I would have have had to lower the HL to like 150 to keep it from going to a full fire...(allowing the full fire while the WB is going has the effect of some of the coal heated water helping maintain the much greater volume WB)

And then in the scenario where the WB temp is dropping because the fire is going out, the 150* wouldn't cut it! So in THAT sense, it wasn't fail safe..i'd have to always be monitoring when the WB temp was getting too low, and be ready to increase the coal boiler HL temp...

So the question became how do I rely on the coal boiler alone 80% of the time, and the 2 together 20% of the time and NOT have to worry about what happens when the wood boiler isn't needed and can die off...

plumbed the 'old' way..I could have the wood boilers' 130 gal of water passing thru the coal boilers' 12 at say 120*, which in that case would result in the coal boiler trying to maintain all that WB water temp!..

I know there are ways around it with Tekmar valves and such..but that gets pretty costly...and it Seemed to me that this method (prime/sec) would do the job I needed..

Hope that makes sense!..Somehow it seems as clear as mud! I blew my back out yesterday installing a new wall oven, and the pain is wonderful!..16 years since I built the shed..def. hit that 'built in obsolescense mark!..every thing is breaking at once!..uuggh!..including me!.. :mad:
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler


Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:15 pm

YES THIS CAN BE DONE but as you point out controls can be costly

I submit there is something aaaaaa---misss with the infrastructure you have piped to infuse coal (and/or) wood boiler energy into the primary loop

and yes for what you want a primary loop for hydraulic isolation of the two boilers and load

control still can be as simple as a few ice cube relays and aquastats wired to switch open on temperature drop [or] rise depending on the location

you will need -- [and forgive me (or just cut me some slack) if I have forgotten your infrastructure]

a pump on each boiler
a pump in the primary loop
a pump to each zone -OR- a supply and a return manifold off of the primary loop

............................................


but -- your primary loop isn't functioning for some reason
Should you discover why and its an EZ fix - well problem solved with a little control maybe

lets revisit how you piped that -- close spaced tees??? are they spaced right??? is the pipe the correct size??? consult the rules above???

............................................

if you find you will repipe next season --

consider a simple series system of the boilers on a simple supply and return manifold setup with a bypass loop (simple small pipe connection from supply end to return) and a heat dump aquastat to circulate the system if necessary

keep both boilers hot - your wood thing will work out with little extra control and keeping that vessel hot will keep it from rotting in 4 months.


and if that heat isn't enough -- consider what its like to wake up next to me in the morningImage
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: steamup On: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:20 pm

Sting,

stoker RI install dwg.pdf
(22.74 KiB) Downloaded 42 times
Select:BBcode: [nepafile=33750]stoker RI install dwg.pdf[/nepafile]


This is the sketch that was sent to me, if you have not seen it.

I am sure several recommendations could be made. Personally, good ideas coupled with good intentions do not always work so good when small details are missed and minor changes are made.

Personally, I would help more but currently up to my eyeballs with other things.

Regards,

Steamup
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:50 pm

Yeah...thats it..with a couple of changes..swap the 2 boiler positions ...Coal boiler comes first..

Note 1: I feel I need to change the position of the wood boiler tee on the primary loop so that IT sees the return water first if its running..

Note 2: There is an additional Flow control check valve on the return manifold branch...My very next plan of attack was to determine if I can do away with at least the supply side valve..they each contribute like 75 ft of pipe resistance, they are a prime suspect as far as I am concerned..and with 1 one on each of the boilers, all that is left to back flow is the contents of the primary loop...

In years prior, Before I re-vamped the plumbing, I had a situation where I'd have 130 gal of 180* water sitting in the WB with no zones calling...and my zones would be heating up and comming on...scalding hot domestic water...hot water comming out of the cold water lines!..good stuff!..no flow valves had been in place..serious back flowing up the return lines into the zones...
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:15 am

....AND I located the auto fill valve to the location of the air scoop/expansion tank..to be at the point of no pressure change

...AND I have a gate valve between each tee..the tee works on the first boiler on the primary, but not the second.. (next thing on the agenda to investigate)

....AND I think its time to loose the now about 30% glychol mix that the original installers put in..(started out at 50%)..thank you, installers, for that 70 gallons at $8.00 per...(Sting! You could add that one to your top 100!)
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:23 am

RULE 100A


or a preamble to Rule 120

Add about 70 gallon of antifreeze to every new install - just in case - at 8 bucks a gallon, its an extra you can bill :D
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:51 am

Exccellent Sting! I feel like I've 'cut my teeth' now that I am an official contributer to the list!..kind of like being a 'made man' now!..wow!... :dancing: :clap:
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:14 pm

Sting wrote:I submit there is something aaaaaa---misss with the infrastructure you have piped to infuse coal (and/or) wood boiler energy into the primary loop
control still can be as simple as a few ice cube relays and aquastats wired to switch open on temperature drop [or] rise depending on the location
-- consider what its like to wake up next to me in the morning

-First things first...Perish the thought of waking up to u in the morning!..I will leave that to your signifigant other(s) and advise them to have a case of mouth wash at the ready!! :P

Sting wrote:You will need -- [and forgive me (or just cut me some slack) if I have forgotten your infrastructure

- a pump on each boiler
--I Do..Taco 007's on the suppy lines...on the coal boiler the pump operates off the HW L7224 aquastat...On the Wood Boiler, the pump simply operates off of a strap on HW L6006a aquastat so that water is pumped into the loop any time the water in the supply pipe reaches a set point...it acts independantly of any system demand

Sting wrote:a pump in the primary loop
-Got it..Taco 007..NOTE: wired from my Taco ZVC406 (DHW IS prioritized) to come on as soon as there is a demand for heat

Sting wrote:a pump to each zone -OR- a supply and a return manifold off of the primary loop

- I have a supply and a return manifold off of the primary loop...the branch between the primary loop and the supply manifold has my sysyem pump, the new Taco 0013...NOTE: This is wired from a Taco SR501 relay, and controlled by a HW L6006a control (that I have installed in the primary loop) so that the water in the loop stays hotter than the water in the boiler, and helps stop the boiler temps from going into free fall..

Sting wrote:BUT.. your primary loop isn't functioning for some reason ...
lets revisit how you piped that -- close spaced tees???

-Yes..However, concerning the the boiler connections to the primary, I have a gate valve installed in the middle of each (not on the tee to the supply/return manifilds tho) ...the first set works, (which is first in the direction of flow), but the other does not..hmm ..the reason remains to be seen..the first set is less than a foot away from a 90 degree elbow in the loop..the second has several ft. of straight pipe behind it...Don't know if that plays into it..Gate Valves: Some say a gate valve adds a great deal of flow restriction...elsewhere, I have read, even from a B & G link that you put out here, that a gate valve fully open adds NO pipe restriction..? so IDK

Sting wrote:are they spaced right??? is the pipe the correct size???

-The pipe size is 1" (copper)..I tried to keep them 4 pipe widths apart...the gate valve increases it to about 5.5"...I have seen the rule of thumb suggesting to keep the tees less than 12" apart..

-Ok--You have seen the layout of the sytem, and my notes pertaining to any changes...again: I have a Flow Control Check Valve on the branch leading to the supply manifold, and 1 on the branch comming from the return manifold..these each add around 70 ft of pipe restriction, and I am wondering if they are hurting the cause..It seems to me that at a minimum, I could loose the one on the supply side

Do You need any more info?

Look forward to your thoughts!
Thanks for your help!
DON
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Sting..are you spending the afternoon with 'The Captain '?
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:39 am

Hmmm...has Sting been Stung? :o ... Hope all is well with you in the land of Fonzie and Ritchie and Potsie... Could Sting be Stumped????...Noooo....say it ain't soo... ;)

When you get a chance, I am eager to hear your words of 'wise-dom' on my above shyte.....
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:03 am

Hope you know its all in good fun, Sting...(said in the spirit of 'Sting-ism' :D ) ANY meaningful help I gather from anyone on here is always appreciated...when ever you have the time and are ready to re-visit this, I'll be all ears..or is that eyes??...no urgency..
-Don
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: Sting On: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:48 am

I have revisited most of what you wrote and It does appear you have grasp the concepts and do have a clear goal
and I have been thinking about a glass half full response - but it keeps going into data stream here as glass half MT

It appears you took that new wet system knowledge and added a lot of "stuff" as per the diagram you sent to Steamup

As I see, there is no silver bullet to offer - no one valve to twist of relay to add
System critique from across the public internet isn't ez and when it becomes this broad

or less than entertaining - well I loose focus and free advise is simply worthless anyway

Steamup - far more qualified than my B/S - might have time later to offer some great suggestions - Now there it a blatant pass of the buck!

Stoker, Consider - You write like you know what you have to do and why the extra "stuff isn't working - so plan now
when the heating season abates - tear out the spaghetti and install the hydraulic separation correctly
- or simplify the infrastructure back to a bullet proof series system

that's about all I got right now besides constipation :shock:

I could add another 20 rules - but would just be adding to the worthless
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:44 pm

Sting wrote:that's about all I got right now besides constipation :shock:

-All is not lost..At least you have cleared up that mystery of that strange 'grunting' sound that kept blowing this way with the Westerly winds!! :P

Sting wrote:Steamup - far more qualified than my B/S - might have time later to offer some great suggestions - Now there it a blatant pass of the buck!

-Yes..blatant !.. :) So The buck stops with Steam..! So I should pick the bowels of his knowledge base, huh? Can't wait to tell him that he has been crowned the 'Grand Poobah' of the forum!..I'm sure it will have the reverse affect on his bowels that you currently enjoy! :lol:

Sting wrote:Stoker, Consider - You write like you know what you have to do and why the extra "stuff isn't working - so plan now
when the heating season abates - tear out the spaghetti and install the hydraulic separation correctly

-Yeah..well..I figured the 'brute force' method was ultimately going to be needed on my part..kind of like a Civil War doc doing an amputation!

-My dilemma is to decide which of the pasta to remove first, as I have the theory down, but not the trial and error backround...

I Guess I would submit to you: Is there one area that seems the best place to start, maybe the most glaring offender ...AND...Is there something I should NOT loose, I.e. maybe the flow control check valve on the return manifold branch??
Sting wrote:- or simplify the infrastructure back to a bullet proof series system

-If you have a diagram or a link to such a design that would benefit me

Thanks for responding..I wonder if you wrote the reply while passing time on the throne...AND..may I suggest Captain and PRUNE Juice?..You might find urself on the bleeding edge of a new trend! :lol:
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler