Splitting 1 hydronic zone into 2 using same plumbing? Sting?

Hi...
My situation is this: I have my boiler(s) set up in my garage. I have a 4 zone zone controller, with eact zone utilized already. 1 is for an indirect DHW, 2 others are hydo-air zones that serve the 1st and 2nd floor respectively, and 1 is a radiant hydronic zone that serves the finished basement.
The finished portion of the basedment is about 2/3rds of the space, with the remainder un-heated. I plan to turn that remaining space into a heated office area. The plumping that serves that heated area already passes thru the un-heated area.
What I'd like to do, is heat that remaing area independant of the rest of the heated area, with its own t-stat, using the existing plumbing...( realize some plumbing mods will be required). I realize that I could add a completely new zone and pipeing, but that would require buying a bigger zone controller and running suppy and return pipes from the basement, thru the fire wall, and into the garage...that doesn't seem appealing to me, and I'm looking for a way to ulilize the existing plumping already zoned to the basement so that that 1 zone would be essentially split into 2...each with its own T-stat....
I'm looking for suggestions on how (of if) I can do this...

If this is not possible, I do have 2 hot water coils that are not being utilized.....1 from my Alaska Coal stoker, and 1 from the boiler...perhaps I could utilize these and a water tank to accomplish this? I don't know if this route would be easier or more cost effective than the original option that I am trying to avoid!

Thanks in advance for your help

stoker_RI wrote: I'm looking for a way to ulilize the existing plumping already zoned to the basement so that that 1 zone would be essentially split into 2...each with its own T-stat....
I'm looking for suggestions on how (of if) I can do this...
Thanks in advance for your help

OK -- first - what is the size of the (existing) pipe that you wish to a appropriate to the point that you want to split to the old and new zone?

Do a heat loss calculation ( at least guess the radiation btu ) on both of these loads

Will the existing pipe I ask about above carry enough energy to supply both loads?

if yes -- get back to me

if no -- you know what you must do

Kind Regards
Sting

Sting wrote:

stoker_RI wrote: I'm looking for a way to ulilize the existing plumping already zoned to the basement so that that 1 zone would be essentially split into 2...each with its own T-stat....
I'm looking for suggestions on how (of if) I can do this...
Thanks in advance for your help

OK -- first - what is the size of the (existing) pipe that you wish to a appropriate to the point that you want to split to the old and new zone?

Do a heat loss calculation ( at least guess the radiation btu ) on both of these loads

Will the existing pipe I ask about above carry enough energy to supply both loads?

if yes -- get back to me

if no -- you know what you must do

Kind Regards
Sting

Thanks, Sting...well, one thing that you should know is that the hydronic heated portion of the area has tha Alaska Coal stove in it, and I virtually never run that zone off of the boiler because of that...the new office space would be segregated from that stove heat source, and would really never be used in conjunction with the already zoned part of the area..having said that, that is why I don't want to just 'add on' to the existing zone, because it would be wasteful and I would over heat the aforementioned portion, or under heat the office space...depending on where the t-stat would be.
The space I will be creating may be about 20 x 15 with out any windows...As opposed to the heated section which is about 800 sq ft...

...and the already heated/furnished portion is in the 'walk out' portion of the basement, which has 5 windows and a 6 ft slider...so I don't really see an issue with heat supply availability...I'm just trying to work with what I have to heat a smaller, separate area independently with out running a whole new zone or truncating the seldom used sction of what is there...

OK...I have about 35 feet of high out put radiators in the heated section, 1" pipe...the layout of them is such that the return of each run loops diriect within the radiator as well..
ALSO...this section that I am now trying to zone/heat has been used as a sometimes work shop type area...when I built this house, I came across an old hydro-air blower from an old school, and hung it from the ceiling in there and my return line passes thru it last, before going to the boiler..I have a switched A-stat on it set at 140 degrees, and even after dumping all those btus in the furnished section, there is still enough hot water to make the thing blow heat...
It is Not something I would want to be visible in a finished area, however, and of course it is not zoned/controlled by a t-stat...
Hope I have provided sufficient info!

Thanks in advance for your time and help!

If your existing zone valves are on the return legs I can envision you Tee'ing into the very start of return leg of the existing zone (well upstream of the existing return leg zone valve, just at the juncture of the return post the last radiator on your existing loop) and right at that juncture placing two zone valves, both controlled by a single T-Stat in the to be newly zoned add-on section. A normally open zone valve would be placed on the existing zones boiler return leg, and a normally closed zone valve on the leg that will be leading into the new zones radiator. In this way, when the old zone is calling for heat and the new zone is not, the old return leg is open and the feed leg to the new zone is closed. When the old zone is not calling for heat but the new zone is, the normally open zone valve closes the return line from the old existing zone and simultaneously the normally closed zone valve opens feeding the new zones radiator. In this case a new return leg must be ran for the new zone. This return would have no zone valve at its tie in to the return manifold where all of the other return leg zone valves are located. When both zones are calling for heat the normally open zone valve will be closed and both zones will then return to the boiler through the new loops return leg.

Would this work?

Hi lsayere, Thanks for the reply...I'm a little sketchy on what u are trying to say...

First off, you said:

lsayre wrote:If your existing zone valves are on the return legs .....

If I understand u right, that would be a deal killer right there...are you talking about the supply and return manifolds for each circuit? If so, my zone valves are on the supply side, not the return...

Do you have a particular zone valve in mind for this?

A normally open zone valve would be placed on the existing zones boiler return leg, and a normally closed zone valve on the leg that will be leading into the new zones radiator. In this way, when the old zone is calling for heat and the new zone is not, the old return leg is open and the feed leg to the new zone is closed.

Not clear on this...sounds like the new zone would be a slave to the old one...since that zones t-stat line is the driving force that goes to the zone controller, and therefore the boiler...

When the old zone is not calling for heat but the new zone is, the normally open zone valve closes the return line from the old existing zone and simultaneously the normally closed zone valve opens feeding the new zones radiator.

Ok..I can see how the new each t-stat would operate the newly installed zone valves, but in that above stated scenario, how do you envision getting the boiler going and the water flowing to the new zone when it calls for heat and the original zone is not??

Thanks!

I envisioned this based upon my current oil boiler and resistance boiler in series situation whereby I have only one continuously operating circulator and multiple zones for which the zone valves are all located on the return leg manifold. Flow is established automatically as soon as any of the zones return leg valves is opened. You might consider switching your zone valves over to the return manifold side. As far as I can tell it makes little difference in the normal situation of one zone valve per zone as to whether the zone valves are on the supply or the return side. Most zone valve manufacturers make normally open zone valves as well as the far and away more typical normally closed kind. You have to request the normally open type specifically, and they generally cost about $10 to $20 more than a normally closed zone valve, probably because they are not typically stock items, and because far fewer of them are manufactured.

lsayre wrote:I envisioned this based upon my current oil boiler and resistance boiler in series situation whereby I have only one continuously operating circulator and multiple zones for which the zone valves are all located on the return leg manifold.

So your circulator pump just runs and runs even if all the zone valves are closed?

lsayre wrote: Flow is established automatically as soon as any of the zones return leg valves is opened.

Isn't this dependant on one of the zones calling for heat?

AND I still don't see how you envision the new t-stat in the new area manipulating or opening that return leg zone valve, if I had it that way...am I missing something? As I see it, I would still have 1 single t-stat line running from the split zone to the zone controller....and why does it matter if the manifold zone valves are on the suppy or return?
Seems like it souldn't...hmmm

Actually I have a DPBV (differential pressure bypass valve) that loops the circulator back to the boiler if all zone valves are closed. I was over-simplifying just a bit.

Flow being "established", means flow through a zone, with a T-Stat opening (energizing) a "normally closed" zone valve to establish the flow through that zone and satisfy a call for heat.

Your existing zone would not be driving flow through your add-on zone. The new T-Stat for the add-on zone would be the only driver of flow for that zone, and it would not require the original zones T-Stat to also be calling for heat.

Your confusion may stem from the fact that zone valves do the exact opposite of their "design" (where design here means "normally closed", or "normally open") when they are energized. If they are normally closed (as nearly all zone valves are) they are opened upon a call for heat by the T-Stat for that particular zone. If they are normally open, they are closed when the T-Stat calls for heat.

Just a small bitch note:

If your going to post advice - may I suggest that said advice be posted with some knoledge of the subject and then not simply signed,

lsayre wrote:
Would this work?

ok

Maybe that was terse - maybe i shouldn't have

but that's me.

Sorry for the delay to respond -- I am sanding the last of 3000 sq ft of floor today -- just the back staircase hall and vestibule to do yet - almost time to stick a fork in me,

so I want to dwell just a moment longer on details - maybe we can yet develop a simple solution - something sympathetic to the rest of the system -- I missed one small point -

Do you zone now with pumps or zone valves?

My Sting guard was obviously down. Glad you were there to catch this. Perhaps I should have concluded rather more properly (and Sting friendly) with:

Am I missing something in the above scenario?". (but then again Sting, you may very likely have found fault regardless)

And come to think about it, I was quite politely directing my ending question directly at you Sting, counting on your wisdom to catch my errors (if any). If there are errors in my logic, at least I tried. How many times have I counted upon you for advice and gotten basically a lot of the above in return.

Hi Sting..You're still finishing floors? I read those posts you had a long time ago...days after you posted them, and I could have helped you out a great deal with the dilemma you were having at the time...(I didn't weight in cuz I thought I was too late)....I own a furniture, cabinet, floor refinishing, refacing and repair business...If you have any questions about your floor, stains, slovents...etc.. please PM me..I can help with that...

Back to my topic here...the direct answer to your question is that I zone with HW zone valves on the supply side, driven by a Sparcozone 4 zone controller...I am in the middle of installing the new LL110 boiler (coal/oil), along side my wood boiler....The system will primary, secondary, parallel..so I will have a primary loop fed by 2 boilers, as per Mr. Holohan in his "Pumping Away" and "Primary Seconday Plumbing" made easy.

Each boiler will have its own pump...he LL110 pump will be driven by the HW7224 if ANY of the zones call...the wood boiler if it happens to be in use, has a strap on A-stat that will supply water to the primary loop...the primary loop will have a direct wired pump (haven't decided yet if I should have it run all the time or prhaps not)...the primary loop will connect to the supply/return manifolds via 2 closely spaced tees...fyi...the tees from the boilers to the primary have a gate valve between the tees (yes, this means that the distance between the tees will be a min of six inches ) which co-incidentally Holohan promotes as optimal, as opposed to the 4"...he claims to keep it lees than 12"...but those additional tees will truely allow me to run each boiler most efficiently, I believe, since with the turn of that ball valve, I can direct the flow of water to pass though either of the boilers if they have any residual btu's to scoop up..i.e..and idleing coal boiler making 5k btus would be wasted...or if I had been burning wood, and was letting the fire die out, why not grab some of that 120-130 degree water as it cools?

So thats the long answer to your short question...but the devil is in the details..so I figured I'd throw it all out there..
Thanks

stoker_RI wrote:I zone with HW zone valves on the supply side,

good

now that nailed - plus the fact that you don't give a hoot if the supply gpm is correct for both the new and the old zone because you have the old zone backed up with a stove.

here is what I suggest:

make your break - place a one inch isolation valve then continue with a tee where ever its best and convenient - don't anguish oe using a fitting branch or pass thru - just pipe it from one to two pipes of logical size - ( stay with ONE inch ) the flow isn't important this is a hack job that will work - its not an engineered flow design

Move the old loop zone valve down stream of this branch and place a new zone valve on the new branch also down stream. _ them place a valve for balancing and isolation after each. don't give a second thought to a flow regulator in case only one zone is running- the pump isn't going to care and this will work good enough. the valves down stream can be used if we need to adjust flow to one side or the other - but we wont be able to balance that till next winter on a cold night. just let it go till then.

control - well the old zone is going to be controlled just like it was - but the new one will need to signal the pump via your transcontinental intergalactic controller that isn't big enough to wear the pants for this job --- soooooo we need an ice cube relay or two -- to fool it to think its sill controlling the one zone valve and it will launch the pump as nessasary - but in fact its taking marching orders from each or both of these valves.

more on this later if you want. time for beer and a L O N G hot shower -- Ill be staining tomorrow

O lookie - the house keeper put a fresh case in the fridge -- and left over pork chops --- good thing she is fat and ugly or I would have screwed this up too by now

Thanks for the help offer -- its just been a very underestimated project.

Ok...you've got my intrigue up...Hope the shower was refreshing..(Plenty of hot water to spare? lol...) and the beer is cold...

Move the old loop zone valve down stream of this branch and place a new zone valve on the new branch also down stream. _ them place a valve for balancing and isolation after each.

-OK..just want to be clear here..you want me to amputate my zone valve that sits neatly atop my supply side manifold next to the other 3, which is in my garage near the boilers, and re-locate it inside the house in the basement downstream of where I severed the supply line feeding the existing radiators?

control - well the old zone is going to be controlled just like it was -

0k..so if I have this right, the t-stat line will now be going from the basement, to the tt input on the zone controller in the garage, then from there back to the basement where the old zone valve would now be located?

but the new one will need to signal the pump via your transcontinental intergalactic controller that isn't big enough to wear the pants for this job --- soooooo we need an ice cube relay or two -- to fool it to think its sill controlling the one zone valve and it will launch the pump as nessasary - but in fact its taking marching orders from each or both of these valves.

-I've got a spare TACO SR501 handy, if we can make that work.

Ill be staining tomorrow

-did you end up using a water based, oil based, or laquer stain? Ditto the top coat...catalized? Pre-catazed?...UV resistant? how many coats?...
Solvents? ..Careful!..don't ball up rags! they go BAM in the night! ..would make a nice wick for your pellet? fuel..or your hardwood floors!..pork chops would be well done in no time too!

Thanks!