Unsure on which way to go-stoker or handfired?-steam boiler

mozz wrote: I would rip out the oil boiler and toss it in the junk pile. No need for a backup with a properly refurbished coal boiler. Slowly upgrade those windows and doors.

Pacowy wrote:1. Use of DHW clobbers heat production from steam systems faster than hot water systems; a decent margin above the installed radiation is needed to prevent excessive interference, esp. with the "growing family".

Please explain this, how could it clobber the system more? I run steam and have no problem with my hot water, it barely makes the boiler kick on. Coal loves to burn hot. After using this for a few years on steam i think hot water baseboard or even colder radiant heat would not be making the best use of burning coal. See what LSFarm heats with a 260 and tell me this person should use a 260 also? So in the future when he gets windows and insulation, the 260 will be overkill. AA's spit out unburnt coal when they are oversized for the job. The AA130, as far as i know, will output more btu than a stock EFM 520. There is a rating on it for 540? I think that is a rating for the steam sizing. I would install a AA130 for now, maybe run a hand fired or rice burning stoker stove and after the windows and insulation, sell the stoker stove. He could also install a AA260 or EFM700 then sell that down the road for a smaller size.

2. To address the cold winter "feel" of old houses, many people run their coal boilers without jackets. This acts as additional radiation that heats the basement and first floor, but requires an additional boiler output margin to produce the same steam.

Try and find a AA with a jacket, won't happen. He can have a coal boiler hooked up to the steam for a few thousand dollars if he does it himself. You would have to ask the guys who refurb them but i bet a lot of them taken out of service are setup for steam. Steam and oil don't mix, steam and coal, yes.

3. The "growing family" might decide in the future to add radiation (in the attic, basement, etc) to create additional living space.

If you add to a steam system, good luck, you'll need it. If they rip it all out and go to hotwater, why not. But we often talk expense and if appears the steam is in place and working so why not just change to a coal boiler as is. They might also close off the attic and unused rooms upstairs. You can turn a steam radiator off and close the door to that room. That would lower your btu requirements? If it's an old house, guaranteed the basement will be cold, damp and home to spiders and whatever and most likely never be turned into living space. The coal boiler will warm the basement and warm the first floor floors, yes no doubt.

4. I'm not a boiler pro, but to the best of my knowledge up to a point there is an efficiency advantage associated with running a bigger boiler at less than full output vs. a smaller boiler flat out, at least if the bigger boiler has a larger heat exchange area (i.e., if you assume the same gross input for each).

I think you have that backwards. Running the boiler at close to max output should show a higher efficiency. Mine hardly runs now and it is smaller by 40,000 btu than the oil boiler it replaced. I could heat 2 houses with mine.

Overall, if somebody's going to put a bunch of $ into a coal-fired steam system, I believe they should take extra care to ensure it doesn't turn out to be underpowered.

I picked up my boiler for $1500, add maybe a few hundred dollars to refurb it, got it into the basement myself, removed the oil and hooked up to the steam myself. It works fine, i'm almost 50 and have never really done plumbing before i bought this house so it can be done for a few thousand $ and your free labor. If i had to move and bought another house, i would do it again myself. 100 year old house most likely had coal to start with, if in NEPA., He could purchase a refurb and have it installed by the same people for $4-5000 if the rest of the system was in decent working order. There was a thread on here with people telling how much they have heated with a EFM 520, some were a lot of square footage and outbuildings and such. I'm just thinking a 700 would be overkill. I like the idea of a 520 or 130, with a Stoker rice stove to supplement.

Done putting the chickens to sleep and eating a smoked chicken that was in the smoker for 6 hours, so please don't mind my posts, just bored.

Mike

Yanche wrote:No national recognized building code permits only a solid fuel heating source in a residence. It's only permitted as a secondary heating source. You need to keep your oil boiler or install something else you tell the permitting authority is your primary heat source. Could be baseboard electric that never gets used. Check what your local building code says.

mozz wrote:

Pacowy wrote:1. Use of DHW clobbers heat production from steam systems faster than hot water systems; a decent margin above the installed radiation is needed to prevent excessive interference, esp. with the "growing family".

Please explain this, how could it clobber the system more? I run steam and have no problem with my hot water, it barely makes the boiler kick on. Coal loves to burn hot. After using this for a few years on steam i think hot water baseboard or even colder radiant heat would not be making the best use of burning coal. See what LSFarm heats with a 260 and tell me this person should use a 260 also? So in the future when he gets windows and insulation, the 260 will be overkill. AA's spit out unburnt coal when they are oversized for the job. The AA130, as far as i know, will output more btu than a stock EFM 520. There is a rating on it for 540? I think that is a rating for the steam sizing. I would install a AA130 for now, maybe run a hand fired or rice burning stoker stove and after the windows and insulation, sell the stoker stove. He could also install a AA260 or EFM700 then sell that down the road for a smaller size.

2. To address the cold winter "feel" of old houses, many people run their coal boilers without jackets. This acts as additional radiation that heats the basement and first floor, but requires an additional boiler output margin to produce the same steam.

Try and find a AA with a jacket, won't happen. He can have a coal boiler hooked up to the steam for a few thousand dollars if he does it himself. You would have to ask the guys who refurb them but i bet a lot of them taken out of service are setup for steam. Steam and oil don't mix, steam and coal, yes.

3. The "growing family" might decide in the future to add radiation (in the attic, basement, etc) to create additional living space.

If you add to a steam system, good luck, you'll need it. If they rip it all out and go to hotwater, why not. But we often talk expense and if appears the steam is in place and working so why not just change to a coal boiler as is. They might also close off the attic and unused rooms upstairs. You can turn a steam radiator off and close the door to that room. That would lower your btu requirements? If it's an old house, guaranteed the basement will be cold, damp and home to spiders and whatever and most likely never be turned into living space. The coal boiler will warm the basement and warm the first floor floors, yes no doubt.

4. I'm not a boiler pro, but to the best of my knowledge up to a point there is an efficiency advantage associated with running a bigger boiler at less than full output vs. a smaller boiler flat out, at least if the bigger boiler has a larger heat exchange area (i.e., if you assume the same gross input for each).

I think you have that backwards. Running the boiler at close to max output should show a higher efficiency. Mine hardly runs now and it is smaller by 40,000 btu than the oil boiler it replaced. I could heat 2 houses with mine.

Overall, if somebody's going to put a bunch of $ into a coal-fired steam system, I believe they should take extra care to ensure it doesn't turn out to be underpowered.

I picked up my boiler for $1500, add maybe a few hundred dollars to refurb it, got it into the basement myself, removed the oil and hooked up to the steam myself. It works fine, i'm almost 50 and have never really done plumbing before i bought this house so it can be done for a few thousand $ and your free labor. If i had to move and bought another house, i would do it again myself. 100 year old house most likely had coal to start with, if in NEPA., He could purchase a refurb and have it installed by the same people for $4-5000 if the rest of the system was in decent working order. There was a thread on here with people telling how much they have heated with a EFM 520, some were a lot of square footage and outbuildings and such. I'm just thinking a 700 would be overkill. I like the idea of a 520 or 130, with a Stoker rice stove to supplement.

Done putting the chickens to sleep and eating a smoked chicken that was in the smoker for 6 hours, so please don't mind my posts, just bored.

Mike

jim d wrote:if you have 13 rads you should 1st measure the rads and determine how many sq. ft. of steam you will need, the boiler should be sized to fire the existing radation then add 15% for the piping that is the correct way to do it. if you don't have a rad sizing chart pm me and i'll get you one jim