Water in coal

Forum rules
ATTN Coal Dealers: To advertise your company you're allowed to start one new topic in "Coal Prices, Coal Quality, Coal Dealer Inquiries and Reviews". You may also respond to other topics started by others where your company has been mentioned and are encouraged to do so. Any other posts just for advertising here or anywhere else on nepacrossroads.com will be considered spam and removed. Repeated violations will result in a permanent ban.

Water in coal

PostBy: Don On: Thu May 12, 2011 6:38 pm

I just bought 60 bags of rice coal and water was dripping on the basement floor. What do the guys with stokers in the living room do? I weighted in a bag at 41 pounds, then I dumped it on a piece of plywood and let it dry out put it back in the bag and it weighted 38 pounds. My two scales are not legally calibrated and I only weighted one bag so I could be wrong but I don`t think so. In the concrete business we have to calculate the water in the sand and make the appropriate adjustments or the customer will be short. I will use about 300 bags this year and that's 600 pounds of water. Has anybody else weighted there coal?
Don
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker k-2
Stove/Furnace Model: utica starfire

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: Pacowy On: Thu May 12, 2011 6:58 pm

You didn't mention the brand. Does it start with a "B"?

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: WNY On: Thu May 12, 2011 8:21 pm

That's the problem with some brands, they are bagged wet, or they have holes in the bags and stored outside and absorb the moisture. Sometimes I get bagged, but make sure I dump them into buckets to dry out or or cut a corner out and let it drain into a bucket or drain.
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: Freddy On: Thu May 12, 2011 9:07 pm

Yup, some coal comes wet....sometimes too wet. It's either because it was washed as it was bagged or water leaked in after bagging. Generally if it is too wet, it's because water leaked in after. It kind of get's looked at this way: If it leaked in after, you didn't pay for it. If it's because it was washed as it was bagged then you'd have a choice.... would you prefer they wash away two pounds of dust & leave it wet, or would you prefer they ship it dry with two pounds of dust?
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: stoker_RI On: Thu May 12, 2011 9:55 pm

Aside from the potential economics of it...I have always been told that wet coal is ok to burn..Is that still the conventional wisdom? or is there a 'too wet' point?
stoker_RI
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
Stove/Furnace Model: WL 110 Boiler

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri May 13, 2011 1:22 am

Don wrote:My two scales are not legally calibrated and I only weighted one bag so I could be wrong but I don`t think so.


I wouldn't trust the scale, I've researched it before and from what I was reading they were finding bathroom scales off as much as five pounds.


Only trouble I ever heard of it being too wet to burn was fresh delivered barley, that's almost like sand and holds the moisture content.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: JIMTORL On: Fri May 13, 2011 9:19 am

I buy in bulk and bag my own (dry) and still have trouble with water. Two stoves one burns rice and one burns pea. In the Fall I will bag up 3 or 4 palletts of each and if it's not covered the small holes in the plastic bags will let water in. Rice seems to hold a lot of water and the pea is only damp. I can only assume the rice blocks the drain holes and does not allow the water to drain. I had one bag that was so wet it put my stoker out, so from that point on I put a hole in the bags and drained them. As for the pea I figured the larger coal allowed more space so the water would drain.
JIMTORL
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: stokersmoker On: Fri May 13, 2011 1:05 pm

I use a Harman Super Mag, and in the manual it says not to use wet coal at all because it will rust the feeding mechanism and ultimately ruin the stove. I have bought bagged coal this year towards the end of the season when I thought I wouldn't use too much more and it was wet, so I just surrounded the stove with several bags of coal and the heat would dry it out in a few days. (Stove is in the basement). I usually buy loose coal though and store it in a bin in the basement. I try to buy it all during the summer when prices are low, plus it will have several months to dry out before I have to use it, so I don't have to worry about this. When September rolls on in and it's time to fire up the stove, I just skim the top layer with a feed scooper. The top layer is always completely dry, but deeper in the pile may still be wet. But by the time Im scooping coal out and exposing the wetter coal underneith, that coal is exposed to 80 degree temperatures and dries out by the time I have to use it. It's always just much easier to buy your coal ahead of time and let it sit for a few months before using.
stokersmoker
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: Super Magnum

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: Don On: Fri May 13, 2011 5:59 pm

Pacowy wrote:You didn't mention the brand. Does it start with a "B"? yes

Mike
Don
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker k-2
Stove/Furnace Model: utica starfire

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: whistlenut On: Fri May 13, 2011 8:28 pm

....and end in a 'K'? If you think you are paying for water, I would suggest you think about a breakfast cereal... the box is only 2/3rds full, however the measured weight is as stated. In coal, any perceived shortage is in the customers favor, and if you think coal is expensive, keep the 'K-Y' handy for the fall when the oil deliveries will be especially painful....along with propane, and who knows about pellets and NG. 'Lighten up' with being so intensely cheap, it is a terrific resource to have so close to home....and still be a great value. :idea: :!:

Mitsubishi has some extremely efficient heat pumps if that suits your needs...geo-thermal...... if you are a believer......solar photo voltaic, or solar panels for hot water....
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: Don On: Sun May 15, 2011 6:07 pm

whistlenut wrote:....and end in a 'K'? If you think you are paying for water, I would suggest you think about a breakfast cereal... the box is only 2/3rds full, however the measured weight is as stated. In coal, any perceived shortage is in the customers favor, and if you think coal is expensive, keep the 'K-Y' handy for the fall when the oil deliveries will be especially painful....along with propane, and who knows about pellets and NG. 'Lighten up' with being so intensely cheap, it is a terrific resource to have so close to home....and still be a great value. :idea: :!:

Mitsubishi has some extremely efficient heat pumps if that suits your needs...geo-thermal...... if you are a believer......solar photo voltaic, or solar panels for hot water....



It does not hurt to be informed, thats why I`m here. As for me I will try another brand of coal that`s more expensive, but may be a better buy. I love being cheap!!!!!!!!!!
Don
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker k-2
Stove/Furnace Model: utica starfire

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sun May 15, 2011 6:55 pm

I sure do understand everyone's desire to have a dry medium to deal with, but dust would be an issue if completely dry, and handling would be more difficult. Many users open a few bags and pour them into a container or a few 5 gallon buckets, so it can dry before use. I have burned many brands bagged, and each will retain moisture, and freeze when the temps drop. Protect your supply in a storage shed or container, and then enjoy the benefits of coal. Wet or frozen wood is no fun to burn, how would you like to have wet pellets? Their bags are 100% sealed with no air holes, however through the magic of 'handling', even a waterproof bag can let water in. The lesson here is to outsmart the problem and anticipate the solutions.

If you are smart enough to learn to burn coal, then you are welcome to enjoy it's benefits. It has a learning curve, and after 38 years of burning, I know a little about it, but not enough. Still another lifetime to learn more.
Had you been to the latest Meet and Greet and met the DiRenzo family, I'll just bet you would have had MANY questions answered. They do not sell bagged, probably because there is sooooo much complaining about 'wet coal'.
You have been buying great coal and you can outsmart the dampness issue. You will be able to smile as others will address the same issue you have and know that you understand and have mastered whatever situation that faces you.

Welcome to the wonderful world of coal, and as I always say: Thank you to all the fine folks who mine it/dig it/process it/ and make it available at a very reasonable price. At 300 a ton bagged you would be looking at $1.50 heating oil, propane at $.99, NG at .1C/cubic ft...wood pellets at $175/ton. DRY cord wood at 250/ton....
Today oil is 3.89 here....that would allow you to burn coal costing about $700/ton. 'Ebenezer Scrooge' wasn't that cheap.
Perhaps someone will post a thread for the 'Cheapest Cal Burner Alive'.......and you could......

My view is that there is plenty of effort saved burning coal, AND a equivalent cost savings of at least 50%. Wouldn't it be nice to live close to the source and buy for between 150 and 190/ton. That would be less than $.98 a gallon oil.
It seems to me that it is similar to the bumper sticker that says: "Don't Criticize A Farmer With Your Mouth Full".
I am happy to have coal as a fuel available to me, and I'm 500 miles north of Hazelton. I only get to visit a couple of times a year, but every time I go there, I meet new friends and renew old friendships. All I'm saying is to be polite and share in the bounty they provide, and remember to say 'Thank You', after you cut your heating bill in half, while your comfort level improves dramatically. :idea: :bang: :alone: :blah: :stretcher:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: Don On: Tue May 17, 2011 1:43 pm

whistlenut wrote:I sure do understand everyone's desire to have a dry medium to deal with, but dust would be an issue if completely dry, and handling would be more difficult. Many users open a few bags and pour them into a container or a few 5 gallon buckets, so it can dry before use. I have burned many brands bagged, and each will retain moisture, and freeze when the temps drop. Protect your supply in a storage shed or container, and then enjoy the benefits of coal. Wet or frozen wood is no fun to burn, how would you like to have wet pellets? Their bags are 100% sealed with no air holes, however through the magic of 'handling', even a waterproof bag can let water in. The lesson here is to outsmart the problem and anticipate the solutions.

If you are smart enough to learn to burn coal, then you are welcome to enjoy it's benefits. It has a learning curve, and after 38 years of burning, I know a little about it, but not enough. Still another lifetime to learn more.
Had you been to the latest Meet and Greet and met the DiRenzo family, I'll just bet you would have had MANY questions answered. They do not sell bagged, probably because there is sooooo much complaining about 'wet coal'.
You have been buying great coal and you can outsmart the dampness issue. You will be able to smile as others will address the same issue you have and know that you understand and have mastered whatever situation that faces you.

Welcome to the wonderful world of coal, and as I always say: Thank you to all the fine folks who mine it/dig it/process it/ and make it available at a very reasonable price. At 300 a ton bagged you would be looking at $1.50 heating oil, propane at $.99, NG at .1C/cubic ft...wood pellets at $175/ton. DRY cord wood at 250/ton....
Today oil is 3.89 here....that would allow you to burn coal costing about $700/ton. 'Ebenezer Scrooge' wasn't that cheap.
Perhaps someone will post a thread for the 'Cheapest Cal Burner Alive'.......and you could......

My view is that there is plenty of effort saved burning coal, AND a equivalent cost savings of at least 50%. Wouldn't it be nice to live close to the source and buy for between 150 and 190/ton. That would be less than $.98 a gallon oil.
It seems to me that it is similar to the bumper sticker that says: "Don't Criticize A Farmer With Your Mouth Full".
I am happy to have coal as a fuel available to me, and I'm 500 miles north of Hazelton. I only get to visit a couple of times a year, but every time I go there, I meet new friends and renew old friendships. All I'm saying is to be polite and share in the bounty they provide, and remember to say 'Thank You', after you cut your heating bill in half, while your comfort level improves dramatically. :idea: :bang: :alone: :blah: :stretcher:


O, I will send them a donation for all they have done for me.
Don
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker k-2
Stove/Furnace Model: utica starfire

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: steamup On: Tue May 17, 2011 3:12 pm

Don wrote:I just bought 60 bags of rice coal and water was dripping on the basement floor. What do the guys with stokers in the living room do? I weighted in a bag at 41 pounds, then I dumped it on a piece of plywood and let it dry out put it back in the bag and it weighted 38 pounds. My two scales are not legally calibrated and I only weighted one bag so I could be wrong but I don`t think so. In the concrete business we have to calculate the water in the sand and make the appropriate adjustments or the customer will be short. I will use about 300 bags this year and that's 600 pounds of water. Has anybody else weighted there coal?


When you buy sand and stone for the concrete, does it come bone dry or is it wet also. (retorical question, of course it has water) You pay by the ton for sand and stone, regardless of how wet it is. I have never seen anybody adjust for water weight in these products. Making concrete is a different process. The water eventually dries from the concrete and will cause shrinkage. This is why you must calculate water in concrete because of physical structural concerns.

Any stone or coal product will retain moisture. If sitting in a pile, it will take forever to dry out. The smaller the media, the more the water will wick up through the pile and be retained. This is capillary action.

Also, take how the coal is processed. It is a wet process to keep dust down and wash out impurities. I am sure there is not much drying time if any until it is bagged. Should they adjust for water? Maybe they do but I am sure it is tough to tell exactly how much water is in the coal and doing so would require more complicated means resulting in additional cost of bagging coal. Bag it dry? Maybe you would get 4 lbs of dust instead of 3 lbs. of water.

Maybe you need to look for a different brand of bagged coal to try. Or buy bulk. Bulk is no doubt a better deal if you can handle it.

Unfortunately, It appears keeping water out of coal is very hard to do. Water has to be dealt with as part of the handling of coal. Read how others deal with the water and figure out what process works best for you.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: Water in coal

PostBy: Pacowy On: Tue May 17, 2011 4:03 pm

I don't think the issue is whether there is water with the coal - the issue is the large quantity of water that regularly appears in bags of rice (don't know about other sizes) from one supplier. To me, it doesn't matter whether it results from the processing, transportation, storage, etc. It just shouldn't have that much water, and enough people have had bad experiences with it that the supplier should do something about it. It's a mess to handle, rusts out hoppers prematurely and doesn't feed well in some stokers.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Visit Lehigh Anthracite