Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: traderfjp On: Sat May 14, 2011 9:39 pm

I finally installed my hybrid heat pump electric heater with a storage tank to increase hot water capacity to 80 gallons.
I will upload actual pics but for now I wanted to get opinions if I need to change the way it's plumbed. I guess I'm doing this backwards.
Take a look and let me know what you think. I have pressure relief valves on both units for safety. In the drawing the cold water from the house goes to the GE heater then the hot water from the GE unit in plumbed into the cold water inlet of the storage tank. The hot water outlet on the storage tank brings the hot water to all faucets, etc.

I have a taco that is plumbed to the drain valve (teed in with a drain valve) which pumps the water to the upper part of the GE tank. It is teed into the pressure relief valve.


Opinions wanted. Thanks
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Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing 3

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: Freddy On: Sun May 15, 2011 5:38 am

Why the extra tank? Is the extra super insulated?

It'll work the way you have it, but I'd think the GE tank will lag behind in coming up to temperature. (That might be a good thing) What turns the pump on & off? I think others might have plumbed it more like in my revised pic. That way both tanks are the same temp all the time. Either way, you'll have more capacity, but, recovery will be very slow. I understand the GE tanks have "standard" electric elements for when demand is high? Because of the extra tank & pump you might have just defeated the GE heat pump part & built a giant "standard" electric hot water tank. If so, then the way you have it plumbed may be the better way. Either way, if it has "standard elements" as well as the heat pump, I'd want to be able to "see" when they run. As I said, you might have just by passed the heat pump & forced it to run in expensive mode.
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Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: traderfjp On: Sun May 15, 2011 9:12 am

Hi,

I think your way would work too. I decided. before seeing your drawing, that I wanted to be able to isolate the storage tank with valves. This way I can run the water heater with out the storage tank and if I see that I need more storage I can open the valves and have the extra capacity. Eventually I will put on a thermostat to turn on and off at the desired temp (not sure what that is yet)

Take a look at the new configuration. Opinions water.

Thanks...
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Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing 3


Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: McGiever On: Sun May 15, 2011 10:58 pm

Take a look at these three plumbing scenarios, disregard some requirements that would not apply to your situation.
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Option 1 looks to be adaptable to what you have shown.

I have been using Option 2 for some time now.

I had a third hole on top of tank w/ T/P valve, just removed T/P to add a Tee, and then replaced T/P valve into Tee and used other side of Tee to feed Hot out to house.

Bought a second dip tube and inserted it into factory Hot out to house and fed it from circulation pump...other side of circulation pump is simply Tee'd into normal Cold supply line.

Option 2 wouldn't quite work right if your T/P is coming out anywhere but on the top of the tank though.

Don't leave out the heat traps.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: Freddy On: Mon May 16, 2011 5:47 am

Did you check to see if the GE heater has electric elements for quick recovery? I'm still scared you will be bypassing heat pump mode.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: traderfjp On: Mon May 16, 2011 7:08 am

Fred: The water heater has several options for making heat. THe operating modes are high demand, hybrid mode, E-heat and normal operation. E-heat is the only mode that uses the heat pump exclusively. I have the unit locked in that mode. Hybird uses the power hungry 4500 watt element and the heat pump. WIth 80 gallons of capacity I don't need any recovery for morning showers. I may also isolate the storage tank and run just the 50 gallon GE HWH alone but this is an experiment for the weekend. I don't want to be skinned alive by the women in my house.

Stand by loses for the total 80 gallons should be minimal. I need to insulate the pipes from each tank too. I also want to install a swich to turn on and off the Taco. If both tanks are at temperature the water doesn't need to circulate between the tanks.

In my furst drawing- I did plumb it out like this but had a leak where I teed the valve for the drain and the line that goes to the storage tank. I also couldn't figure out why it wasn't circulating the water between tanks. I had a valve shutoff that is very hard to see. ANyway, I like the newer setup better since the GE HWH looks to be on its own. If I need service the tech can't say that it's plumbed wrong. I still think the first scenario I had may have been slghtly better.
traderfjp
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing 3

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: Sting On: Mon May 16, 2011 9:36 am

All these designs and comments are Lovely - but provide NO - NONE -- ZIP (pity doo DAA) ---- hot water if and when storage in below set point or worse:
OUT of energy and full of COLD water

here is a link to a system that will provide

http://www.nofossil.org/index.php?choice=hotwater

Note how employing TWO thermal reacting valves will always provide code set point domestic hot water to the tap - (at the capacity of recovery)
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: traderfjp On: Mon May 16, 2011 10:49 am

There is a taco that circulates the water from the storage tank to the Heater so both tanks are always at temperature. I don't understand your point.

Sting wrote:All these designs and comments are Lovely - but provide NO - NONE -- ZIP (pity doo DAA) ---- hot water if and when storage in below set point or worse:
OUT of energy and full of COLD water

here is a link to a system that will provide

http://www.nofossil.org/index.php?choice=hotwater

Note how employing TWO thermal reacting valves will always provide code set point domestic hot water to the tap - (at the capacity of recovery)
traderfjp
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing 3

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: Sting On: Mon May 16, 2011 11:27 am

the point is

and you have to do alittle home work to maybe get my point

STUDY NoFossels design and maybe even draw it on a bar napkin -- then think like the water and draw with your crayon how the flow moves from tank to faucet.

--->Your designs expand the storage of the original tank

Thats all well and good but:

as you begin to use the stored energy it WILL be replaced with water that is street temperature -- 50(ish) degrees cold into BOTH tanks.
or= Under hi demand the storage tank will be receiving new water at less than 120 degrees = as the system continues to circulate all the water stored in both tanks - the whole tank system will be mixed down to some lower temperature

WHY????

because the designs you have been shown and are drawing, provide no tank temperature stratification -

No FO, has created a design on his web site; as I posted, that (if) you use your geo heater in place of his boiler and your storage tank in place of his storage tank, then connect as his design - you regain tank stratification in both the production and the storage tank - and - AND - you gain a constant but not infinite supply of hot safe tap water.

Kind Regards
Sting
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: Freddy On: Mon May 16, 2011 11:32 am

The point Sting is making is that you have no stratification. All the water in both tanks will be the same temperature at any given time because the pump is constantly mixing it. Normally a hot water tank is such that hot water comes off the top, cold water goes in the bottom. As you use hot water, it stays about the same temp until the cold reaches the top and you run out of hot water. With your system as you use hot water, the temp will go down down down as you use it because the cold water entering is blended with the hot on an ongoing basis.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: Sting On: Mon May 16, 2011 11:42 am

Thanks for noticing Freddy

I Submit:

With out incorporating stratification into these two tank designs -- the economy of operation will be lost -- in fact it will cost more to operate the system than if the single tank system, were left alone in the first place.
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: traderfjp On: Mon May 16, 2011 12:23 pm

I read your first post quickly. I have to really study the drawing you sent. I like the idea of being able to isolate the GE tank as I have it plumbed now. Anyway, I was just looking at the drawing I posted and it's not fully correct. I have the Taco pulling from the top of the storage tank (mostly hot water) where it gets pumped back top the top of the tank for the GE heater. Then the water is drawn from the bottom of the GE heater and is fed into the cold water inlet of the storage tank. I think this a better scenario then what I have pictured.

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong - when there is a call for hot water both tanks will help out with capacity and both will feed hot water from the tops of their tanks. Is this a better design?
traderfjp
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing 3

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: traderfjp On: Mon May 16, 2011 12:31 pm

Crude illustration in paint.
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Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: Sting On: Mon May 16, 2011 1:54 pm

traderfjp wrote: Is this a better design?


no

It appears you miss the point of Tank Stratification and the necessity of it in Domestic Hot Water production and storage.

This isn't a dwelling heating system driven by a underfeed coal stoker - if it were - your design would have merit - it still would be incorrect





but not as much - I am sure you will be fine -- Ill stop trying to help
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Finally Installed GE Hybrid Heat Pump Need Advice

PostBy: traderfjp On: Mon May 16, 2011 2:56 pm

I looked at the diagram you linked too but couldn't grasp how it would apply to my setup. How are you suggesting I run the two tank together?
traderfjp
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing 3