Who would have guessed this?

Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:16 pm

The EMTALA Law didn`t come into being until 86, before then an Emergency Room could & often did deny treatment to those that could not pay. If lucky they were taken to a clinic somewhere that might treat them. Life has not always been a bowl of cherries. Even now with the law the treatment is either written off or passed on to you know who.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:23 pm

samhill wrote:The EMTALA Law didn`t come into being until 86, before then an Emergency Room could & often did deny treatment to those that could not pay. If lucky they were taken to a clinic somewhere that might treat them. Life has not always been a bowl of cherries. Even now with the law the treatment is either written off or passed on to you know who.


So what? There are no guarantees in life. The fact is that anyone living in this country at the time Obamacare was passed had access to medical care through either state or federal programs or at the emergency room. They may not have taken advantage of it but it was available. Given that fact, Obamacare - a socialized medical program - won't change the life span of anyone; technically everyone will still have access to medical care. However, there is a big difference, recent analysis shows that Obamacare will actually limit access to medical care due to the increasing number of doctors refusing to see Medicaid patients (of which a majority of Americans will be thrown to). I wonder how that's going to impact the lifespan in the US... Respectfully, Lisa
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:46 pm

Just a week or so ago there was a man that robbed a bank I believe in North or South Carolina of one dollar just so he could go to prison for medical care. It back fired on him because it was such a low amount but it brought into light how desperate some people are in this great country. Like I say just because you got medical care it doesn`t mean everyone does, its usually the guy in the middle that just doesn`t qualify either way.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:09 pm

samhill wrote:Just a week or so ago there was a man that robbed a bank I believe in North or South Carolina of one dollar just so he could go to prison for medical care. It back fired on him because it was such a low amount but it brought into light how desperate some people are in this great country. Like I say just because you got medical care it doesn`t mean everyone does, its usually the guy in the middle that just doesn`t qualify either way.


That's a choice he made. I know of someone that did the same thing to get housing. He spent his whole life avoiding work and in his 60's was living in a tent in a field. People make choices.

There used to be charity, "free" and church run clinics. Not anymore. Government health care put them all out of business.

Everyone has been taught that medical care is something the government provides so no one bothered to donate the charity clinics.

I predict Obamacare will be the final nail in the coffin of whatever thing like that still exists.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:53 pm

I think it is more of a liability factor that closes free clinics, places used to be able to use the close to expired supplies that were donated but that all changed when the lawyers got involved trying to find fault in why a dieing person wasn`t able to be saved. The cost of mal-practice ins. drives more doctors away than anything else. If you can`t charge big bucks you can`t afford the insurance.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:00 pm

That's got nothing to do with health care or insurance.

That's tort reform.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:32 pm

OK & tort reform has nothing to do with health care or insurance. The insurance that any medical professional has nothing to do with the cost of health care. Very interesting. Before now I was always of the mindset that the cost of doing anything directly reflected the price that would be asked for preforming whatever service it my be. To think all these years I`ve been doing things wrong, oh well live & learn.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:34 pm

And if you had tort reform, the cost of insurance would be lower, now wouldn't it?

Besides, malpractice insurance is a very minor cost in the overall price.

Government subsidy drives the cost up far more than anything else.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:34 am

This might debunk some of your thoughts Jpete. http://makethemaccountable.com/myth/Ris ... urance.htm
http://www.ehow.com/about_5514154_avera ... rance.html One of my high school classmates went on to become an ob/gyn & he no longer will take on any inturns simply because of Ins. costs.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: rberq On: Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:44 pm

lsayre wrote:Perhaps the saddest part for me is that Cuba eeks in just above us, though we are at virtually a dead heat tie. All my life I've been taught and/or assumed that living conditions there (including health care) are totally abysmal.

Interesting that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is in Cuba for his cancer treatment, and not somewhere else.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:00 pm

You're not going to get better treatment in either Cuba or Venzuela, it's a joke. In a nut shell the WHO's rankings are a fraud,they don't even publish them anymore because they themselves have admitted they aren't accurate.


-----------edit---------

Let's start off with this:

http://www.cato.org/publications/commen ... ey-kidding

The WHO rankings are based on a constructed index of five factors. One factor is "health level," defined as a country's disability-adjusted life expectancy. Another is "health responsiveness," which includes desirable characteristics of healthcare like speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities.

Both of these are sensible indicators of health quality, but they constitute only 37.5 percent of each country's score. The other 62.5 percent encompasses factors only tenuously connected to the quality of care -- and that can actually punish a country's ranking for superior performance.

Take "Financial Fairness" (FF), worth 25 percent of the total. This factor measures inequality in how much households spend on healthcare as a percentage of their income. The greater the inequality, the worse the country's performance.

Notice that FF necessarily improves when the government shoulders more of the health spending burden, rather than relying on the private sector. To use the existing WHO rankings to justify more government involvement in healthcare is therefore to engage in circular reasoning, because the rankings are designed to favor greater government involvement. (Clinton's plan would attempt to improve the American FF score by capping insurance premiums.)


Suppose you had two equal health care systems that both spent the exact same amount of money with exact same outcomes. One is funded 100% privately by individuals and the other is 100% socialist system funded by the government. The socialist system would outrank the private one.

In the real world US citizens have access to more options and more money to spend on health care than in a poor country like Cuba, because I can and do buy aspirin or take advantage of things here in the US not available in Cuba this is a bad thing?

The other two factors, "health distribution" and "responsiveness distribution," are no better. Together worth 37.5 percent of a country's score, these factors measure inequality in health level and responsiveness. Strictly speaking, neither measures healthcare performance, because inequality is distinct from quality of care. It's entirely possible to have a healthcare system characterized by both extensive inequality and good care for everyone.


Still nothing to do with outcomes, a country can score well on this if health care is equally as bad for everyone. :roll:


That's even before we get into fraudulent data, the data used for these rankings is reported by the countries.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:49 am

Granted that the health care system in the USA is undoubtedly the worlds best, how do so many other nations manage to have longer life expectancy? As was stated early on by mikeandgerry, culture, diet, and exercise likely play the major roll in this. As a nation we have grown fat and lazy and ignorant and complacent as our overall level of freedoms have simultaneously been steadily eroded. There is a general attitude of malaise and feeling of hopelessness and despair that prevails over many of us. Therefore, our outlook and attitude are depressingly negative. Perhaps faith and mental attitude are factors? Perhaps access to the worlds best health care system is a factor (though I'm certain that taking from those who achieve and giving to those who don't isn't the answer here)? I'm certain that many other factors must be significant here also.
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: rberq On: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:11 am

Richard S. wrote:
inequality [of healthcare distribution] is distinct from quality of care
... a country can score well on this if health care is equally as bad for everyone.
lsayre wrote:Granted that the health care system in the USA is undoubtedly the worlds best, how do so many other nations manage to have longer life expectancy?

Good question. Maybe they do it by having "pretty good" QUALITY of care combined with "very good" ACCESS to care?
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:33 am

lsayre wrote:Granted that the health care system in the USA is undoubtedly the worlds best, how do so many other nations manage to have longer life expectancy? As was stated early on by mikeandgerry, culture, diet, and exercise likely play the major roll in this.


Life expectancy takes into account all deaths, we have a larger amount of unnatural deaths, car accidents etc. There is other issues as well, We have a larger part of our population living in rural areas so immediate emergency care in a hospital is not possible. There's a study that suggests we have higher life expectancy when these figures are taken into account. The reason I say "suggests" is because the methodology they used has been criticized. That doesn't change the fact we have more people dieing in car accidents. ;)
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Re: Who would have guessed this?

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:16 am

rberq wrote:
lsayre wrote:Perhaps the saddest part for me is that Cuba eeks in just above us, though we are at virtually a dead heat tie. All my life I've been taught and/or assumed that living conditions there (including health care) are totally abysmal.

Interesting that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is in Cuba for his cancer treatment, and not somewhere else.


I guess living in Cuba is ok if you are in the ruling class or want to return to a lifestyle found in the 1960s. The truth of the matter is things are pretty abysmal for everyone else. That's why people are willing to set sail on rafts or inner tubes to leave there. If the report cited in the first post is saying the US and Cuba are tied for lifespan longevity, I'd really question it's accuracy. A quick google search finds a much different story. Why do you find it interesting that Chavez would seek treatment in Cuba, who else do you think is going to let him in? Lisa

http://ctp.iccas.miami.edu/FOCUS_Web/Issue59.htm
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2886.htm
http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagjc005.php (I can't find a date on this but the last mentioned in the article was in the late 90s)
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